Sex and Torah

JRSut1000

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Does MJism/Judaism differ from traditional views of sexual morality? There is one MJ author who wrote a book about "[cant remember full title]: sexual freedom of Torah" where he actually condones polygamy and sex before marriage IF the couple goes on to get married. Can we talk and are we allowed to discuss these things a bit? I'm looking for perspectives from both MJs and Jews.
 

JRSut1000

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I came across this article:

From A Woman's Perspective: The Case For Polygamy
January 9, 2007 - Batsheva bat David, Pilegesh.org

There are many who would ask, I imagine why a woman would choose polygamy? It might be a good deal for a man, many might suppose, but why would a woman choose to share her husband with another woman or women and choose to be a polygamous wife? Why settle for the imagined subjugation, exploitation and degradation?

There are many myths and untruths about the polygamous lifestyle, and there are many different forms and practical applications of the theory. There is no "Rule Book for Polygamous Marriage" that lays down the structure and form of the practice. The only guide we have is the Torah, the Holy Word of God, which should guide and enlighten each human being as we strive to be obedient to G-d's will for our lives. It is, historically, a form of marriage which has been practiced all over the world, and which is much more prevalent than monogamy. It is also a form of marriage which has taken on a particularly bad connotation in Western European culture, especially in the United States. What is it about this lifestyle that raises such emotion and criticism? At a time when homosexual marriage is becoming more and more accepted, what is the problem with polygamy?

One of the problems is the untruths and misconceptions that form our popular cultural idea of what polygamy is. Speaking as a woman and a polygamous wife, I have not found that women are exploited or subjugated. Rather the opposite is true. Women achieve more freedom and expanded horizons than in monogamy. Why? There are two or more to share the housework, the cooking, the childcare, freeing each one to have more time to herself to pursue independent goals and objectives. Women are as free as they choose to speak their minds. If women are kept silent, that is the problem of the individuals involved, women as well as men, not the form of marriage. Exploitation and subjugation may occur in some situations, but that also occurs in monogamous marriages. The form of marriage is not the problem - the individuals involved in the marriage and their attitudes are the problem. A polygamous marriage based on Halachah truths and precepts, as all marriages should be, should meet the same standards as any monogamous marriage. Husbands should love their wives, and wives should be submissive to their husbands, based on Halachah principles.
To those who would argue that polygamy makes women dependent, I would say from experience that just the opposite is true. A woman married to a man with other wives is forced to have a very strong sense of who she is, what she's doing, and why she is doing it, and must maintain her own sense of identity. Her identity cannot be wrapped up in her husband's identity, the way many women in monogamous marriages become, simply because her husband isn't always there. And for an independent woman, that's one of the advantages. There is free time and energy to spend as one chooses. There is a built-in set of companions and friends for fellowship, for sharing work as well as play, and for help and caring. G-d brings people together in a family for reasons that are beneficial to each person-and so out of every relationship in the family we can learn and grow. Polygamy is not for everyone. As long as every individual gets the time, energy, caring and compassion he or she requires, what is the problem with a man having more than one wife? As our society has encouraged women to make independent choices, and individuals to fulfill their own unique potential, if a woman chooses polygamy, does anyone have the right to tell her she cannot make that choice? Abuse and exploitation should not be tolerated, as they should not be tolerated anywhere in our society. Polygamy is not abuse. It is a lifestyle ordained by G-d for some people.

Examine the Tanakh. There is nowhere that polygamy is preached against. It was not only common in the 1st and 2nd temple eras, Jewish polygamy has been a common practice in Jewish culture in Muslim countries to this day. Monogamy was only brought to the Jewish world by the pagan Roman civilization. Yet if such a common practice was wrong, why did the prophets not preach against it, as they did against all the other wrongs of the day? Polygamy is not for everyone. But for some it is G-d's calling and G-d's special blessing. It must be based on Torah principles and lived in obedience to G-d's will, as any monogamous marriage must be. It certainly has its problems and pitfalls, as does any marriage particularly when it is not a lifestyle that we are trained in this culture to live. It is a lifestyle that provides much love, fellowship, support and growth in one's walk with the Lord. To those whom G-d has called, it is a special treasure.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Does MJism/Judaism differ from traditional views of sexual morality? There is one MJ author who wrote a book about "[cant remember full title]: sexual freedom of Torah" where he actually condones polygamy and sex before marriage IF the couple goes on to get married. .
It seems some of what was noted would be included in the category of common law marriages - and, from a certain perspective, shacking up/living together with others in full intimacy/sexual relations without marriage contract. What occurred with Joseph and Mary in the situation they were in seems to speak strongly on that point...


Matthew 2:18-24 , concerning the example of Mary and Joseph, is interesting when seeing how Joseph planned on Divorcing Mary in secret when realizing that she was pregnant. In our culture, divorce only happens once a couple gets married/has sex...but in that time period, one could be "married" and yet at the stage of a marriage where it was essentially an "engagement"...and yet, to fall into immorality during that time would have carried the same penalty of stoning that adultery within marriage did (Deuteronomy 24:1-3, Leviticus 21:7, Jeremiah 3:8, ).

Joseph stayed with Mary after the Lord spoke to him in a dream, and he did not have any consumation in the marriage until after Christ was born. Mary was Joseph's by contract... with him likely to have already paid a dowry for Mary to her parents. She was promised to him so that contract was made and she'd of been in waiting. Once married,. they'd normally consummated the marriage but in this case, that was skipped. They were nevertheless husband and wife and no longer promised or engaged as folks like calling it today.

For them, their marriage contract had not been completed even when it was considered a "done" deal from one perspective. .

As one organization said best:
Several Biblical passages refer to the negotiations requisite for the arranging of a marriage (Gen. xxiv.; Song of Songs viii. 8; Judges xiv. 2-7), which were conducted by members of the two families involved, or their deputies, and required usually the consent of the prospective bride (if of age); but when the agreement had been entered into, it was definite and binding upon both groom and bride, who were considered as man and wife in all legal and religious aspects, except that of actual cohabitation.

The root ("to betroth"), from which the Talmudic abstract ("betrothal") is derived, must be taken in this sense; i.e., to contract an actual though incomplete marriage. In two of thepassages in which it occurs the betrothed woman is directly designated as "wife" (II Sam. iii. 14, "my wife whom I have betrothed" ("erasti"), and Deut. xxii. 24, where the betrothed is designated as "the wife of his neighbor"). In strict accordance with this sense the rabbinical law declares that the betrothal is equivalent to an actual marriage and only to be dissolved by a formal divorce.
Betrothal and Home-Taking.

After the betrothal a period of twelve months was allowed to pass before the marriage was completed by the formal home-taking ("nissu'in," "liḳḳuḥin"). In case the bride was a widow or the groom a widower, this interval was reduced to thirty days (Ket. v. 2; Shulḥan 'Aruk, Eben ha-'Ezer, 56). After the dispersal of the Jews had brought them into contact with the Western peoples, this arrangement was felt to be inconvenient and out of harmony with the prevailing views. It therefore becamecustomary to perform the entire marriage ceremony, betrothal and home-taking ("erusin" and "nissu'in"), at one time; and an affiancing or engagement similar to that prevailing among non-Jews was introduced. This was not an entire innovation, as its roots already existed in the custom of "shiddukin" or consent to marry, which existed in the days of the Talmud and probably also in the Biblical age.

It was considered indispensable by the rabbis that a man should gain the good-will and consent of his prospective bride before entering upon a contract of marriage. Rab, the Babylonian amora, was accustomed to punish severely any one who married without first having persuaded and gained the consent of his wife (Ḳid. 13a; Yeb. 52a et al.).
It seems to be the same case with our relationship with Christ, as we're called His Bride multiple times throughout scripture (Ephesians 5:21-33)---and yet, the time of Consumation has not necessarily occurred when the Bride is presented SPOTLESS and the Feast has occurred. In the meantime, the Bride is still considered "married" to the groom and we wait patiently, keeping ourselves prepared for the Great Wedding Day ( Matthew 25:1-3, Luke 5:33-35 , John 3:28-30 , Jude 1:17-24, Revelation 18:22-24 , Revelation 19:6-8, Revelation 21:1-3, etc )....and as Ephesians 4:30 and II Peter 1:3-11 make clear, the Spirit has been given to us as a Seal---a Guarantee that we belong to God (Ephesians 1:13-14), while we also have the CHOICE to participate in the SPirit so we can grow more in perfection before Christ comes to COMPLETE the marriage.


Depending on one's view of salvation, you may get differing responses from here...from many say that Christ being married to us means that we're already Done, whereas others say that the Marriage is in process...with us still having to walk it out less we disqualify ourselves and end up divorced from Christ when it comes to renouncing Him/making a marriage null and void. Some are for a middle-of-the-road approach in saying that Christ is outside of time----and as He is in Eternity, he can speak on an issue as if its done since he's there, while we are still here having to walk it out/confirm it. Hebrews 10:13-14 comes to mind when it concerns how His sacrifice has made "perfect" those who are being made Holy progressively....and later, in Hebrews 12:14-17, there is a stern call given to SEEK Holiness since no one will ever see God without it. I Peter 1:13-25 seems to echo this theme of how things are never DONE Fully when we choose Christ and partake of His Spirit.

Some of this gets intriguing when considering how many people HAD the Holy Spirit/walked in the Faith---and yet, they either shipwrecked or turned away as Christ said even followers of Him were capable of (Hebrews 10:19-32, I Timothy 1:18-20, II Timothy 2:3-26, Hebrews 3-4, Galatians 1:6-10, Galatians 3-4, James 4:1-12, I Corinthians 10, John 15, etc). Marriage takes work----and just because a price HAS been paid for Christ to buy us as His Bride...just as Joseph bought Mary with a Dowry.....that doesn't mean that the Marriage is going to end in celebration

Can we talk and are we allowed to discuss these things a bit? I'm looking for perspectives from both MJs and Jews
I would think so. I think what has to be remembered is the fruit of what happens when such things happen - as anyone studying the Torah will quickly see that there was an early context to the issue of polygamy. It was not God's original intention - as seen in Matthew 19 and Genesis 1...and yet he still worked through it/set rules on it. In the New Covenant/early body of belivers, the issue of polygamy was one that had strict boundaries attached to it. Others in polygamous marriages were not allowed to be deacons or elders - but that didn't necessarily mean that they were not allowed to share truth/edify others.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I came across this article:

From A Woman's Perspective: The Case For Polygamy
January 9, 2007 - Batsheva bat David, Pilegesh.org

There are many who would ask, I imagine why a woman would choose polygamy? It might be a good deal for a man, many might suppose, but why would a woman choose to share her husband with another woman or women and choose to be a polygamous wife? Why settle for the imagined subjugation, exploitation and degradation?

There are many myths and untruths about the polygamous lifestyle, and there are many different forms and practical applications of the theory.
Concerning the article, I think that there were several points within it that seemed to be a bit off - and missing the social context of what Polygamy was/why it was allowed to begin with. If I may say...

The verse in Exodus 21 is very interesting, in light of how Exodus 21:10 states that multiple marriages are not to diminish the status of the first wife, while Deuteronomy 21:15-17 states that a man must award the inheritance due to a first-born son to the son who was actually born first, even if he hates that son's mother and likes another wife more....and of course, within all that, there's the scripture of Deuteronomy 17:17 stating that the king shall not have too many wives.
.

As said best at the ministry of "Christian-ThinkTank.com", if looking up the article entitled "Polygamy in the NT Period << The Christian ThinkTank..." ( )

Polygamy was practiced somewhat in 1st century Palestinian Judaism (by the government/aristocratic leaders):


"In the Second Temple period, Jewish society was, at least theoretically, polygamous, like other oriental societies of the time but in contrast to the neighboring Greek and Roman societies...."[HI:JWGRP:85]

"There is evidence of the practice of polygamy in Palestinian Judaism in NT times (cf. J. Jeremias, Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus: An Investigation into Economic and Social Conditions during the New Testament Period, 1969, 90, 93, 369f.). Herod the Great (37-4 B.C.) had ten wives (Josephus, Ant. 17, 19f.; War 1,562) and a considerable harem (War 1,511). Polygamy and concubinage among the aristocracy is attested by Josephus, Ant. 12, 186ff.; 13, 380; War 1, 97. The continued practice of levirate marriage (Yeb. 15b) evidently led to polygamy, which was countenanced by the school of Shammai but not by that of Hillel. [NIDNTT:s.v. "Marriage, adultery, bride, bridegroom"]



On the issue of Polygamy, something that came to mind was the reality of what often happened within the OT continually...and on the issue, as God said to David:
II Samuel 12:7-9

7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

Of course, in light of the fact that God said explicitly that he gave the wives of David's enemies to marry them, there's the reality of why polygamy was allowed with leaders within the OT...and that just because it occurred did not mean it was ever God's Best, as God intended in Genesis 1-2 (and as Jesus said in Matthew 19) that God intended for man to be made for one woman.


It's understood that divorce was rampant in the OT, with women often harmed because of it...with the Lord having to make rules in order to ensure that it was not easy to divorce. For was given as a protection of the women divorced---as it'd serve to make it as difficult/expensive as possible to divorce since many women were left DESTITUTE after divorce.......and as it relates to polygamy, God put in place monogamous marriage---only to end up having man quickly wanting more than one woman (Gen 4: 19)--and thus, the Lord later sought to regulate the polygamous practice (Ex. 21: 10), even though He was never pleased with it necessarily ( Mal. 3: 16).


With the difficulty of polygamy issues, In real life, I've seen this in Human Services when it comes to working with others who from other countries.......for there was one time I was working with a woman whose parents were from West Africa---and there the men practice marrying many wives.

She grew up in the household seeing multiple mothers of children in the same household...and it often perplexed me to consider what would happen if they came to churches in the U.S. I'm reminded of what another said when pondering what to do with a man who already has more than one wife before coming to Christ.

There was a specific situation in Nigeria the man brought up where another had three wives, was later converted to Christ ...but perplexed on what he should do. He was wondering where should he send all of his wives away but one....and which ones should he put away. And the spiritual men who were in his life advised that he continue in his situation, in the spirit of 1 Corinthians 7 which mentions the wisdom of remaining in the situation one finds oneself when coming to Christ.


Of course, the man would not be an appropriate elder in the church according to NT Standards---though that would not exclude the man from giving advice as all believers are called to do when it comes to SUBMITTING to one another/encouraging one another in Christ...and as it relates to speaking to one another with Psalms/Hymns and Spiritual Songs, the man alongside his wives would still be called to do such (Ephesians 5:15-21, Colossians 3:16)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Does MJism/Judaism differ from traditional views of sexual morality? There is one MJ author who wrote a book about "[cant remember full title]: sexual freedom of Torah" where he actually condones polygamy and sex before marriage IF the couple goes on to get married. Can we talk and are we allowed to discuss these things a bit? I'm looking for perspectives from both MJs and Jews.
Although I'd definately not say that Torah promotes sex outside of marriage as a good thing, there is something to be said on the seriousness of what sex was in Judaic culture. First, in ancient Israel, sexual intercourse was marriage. Exodus 22:16, 17 reads: “If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.”

This verse implicitly tells us that ancient Israel had no concept of pre-marital sex. Having sexual intercourse with a virgin was an act of marriage, unless her father intervened. In other words, sexual intercourse was marriage. Another example is
Genesis 24, which tells about the day Isaac’s bride, Rebekah, came to him. Genesis 24:67 reads: “Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.”

In an uncomplicated way, Isaac married Rebekah by publicly entering a tent to have intercourse with her. This points out once more that in ancient Israel sexual intercourse was marriage. Furthermore, notice that Isaac had no knowledge of what Rebekah looked like or what kind of person she was prior to this event. Obviously, ancient Israel had no concept of making sure that two people were compatible. Rather, they understood that compatibility was something two people made for themselves.

 
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