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Seventh day observance compulsory?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by GingerBeer, May 19, 2017.

  1. listed

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    That is what the tithes and offerings were for in the law. I forgot how many store houses were in Israel.
     
  2. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Would the Israelites have tithed if not commanded to do so? See Malachi 3:7-9. Churches today depend on free will offerings, not compulsory tithes, and most do very well (if they don't over-commit their congregations).
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  3. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    No. But I think it is a rehearsal for the 1000 year Messianic rest that the world will enjoy in the future.

    King David (Ps 90:4), the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 3:8), the Apostle John (Revelation 20) , and even early Jewish sages (Sanhedrin 97a, Midrash Pirke de Rabbi Eleazar, Zohar 1:117a, and many others) held the opinion that since 'one day was like a thousand years with the LORD) and that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, thus the Present Age would continue for 6000 years, followed by 1000 years of the Messiah and the Wold to Come.

    So the seventh day Sabbath is a rehearsal for this millennium. This is the core of the 'rest' mentioned in Hebrews 4.
     
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  4. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Why do you apply "a day is like a thousand years" to prophetic passages mentioning days? Peter wrote:
    But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.2 Peter 3:7-9
    The day is like a thousand years thing is applied to the apparent delay in the Lord's return but it is not given as a rule for interpreting prophetic passages that mention days.
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Junior Member

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    The Lord’s Day the Sabbath of the Lord thy God,
    for God concerning the Seventh Day thus spoke,
    and God on the Seventh Day from all his works rested
    according to the working of the exceeding greatness
    of his mighty power which He wrought in Christ
    when He raised Him from the dead
    and finished all his works He had made
    to reign, the King, for ever and ever.

    Sabbaths’ Feast of Christ Home Assemblies Reformed Protestant Faith
    To joy in the Fellowship of Christians persuaded by God of the sanctity of the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God for to be the Lord Jesus’ Day of Worship-Rest.
    The urgency of Sabbaths’ celebration for the Christian Faith and Church, springs from the knowledge of the energy of God’s operation in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Ephesians 1:17-23.
    The Sabbath, its engagement and enjoyment, are grounded in Divine Election and Predestination and realised in the “Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord”, whom God the Father “Declared the Son of God with Power according to the Spirit of Holiness by resurrection from the dead:— by Whom we have received Grace for the obedience of the Faith for His Name among all nations, among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ, to the end ye may be established and comforted by the mutual faith in the Gospel of His Son.” Romans 1:1...12.
    We are not ashamed of, nor let ourselves be judged with regard to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Ro1:16, Col2:16)Therefore we remember and celebrate “The Lord’s Day”, Sabbaths’ Eating and Drinking of the Lord’s Feast, holding to the Head Nourishment being ministered, growing with the growth of God, proclaiming Jesus Christ Raised from the dead. (Col2:12-19)
    Join in Sabbath’s Celebration and Fellowship through the study and proclamation of the Word ‘according to the Scriptures’...
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Having no more need for a schoolmaster is not at all the same as having no more need to live according to what the schoolmaster taught you. When a 1st grader masters what their teacher has to teach them, they move on to a new teacher, but the new teacher doesn't tell them to forget everything they learned previously, but rather they build upon what they were previously taught. Similarly, someone can't move on to algebra by disregarding everything that they were taught about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Now that Christ has come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still the same because he taught obedience to the Mosaic Law both by word and by example. We now also have the Holy Spirit, who has the role of leading us to obey God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

    Furthermore, God's righteousness is eternal and unchanging (Psalms 119:142), which means that the way to act according to God's righteousness is likewise eternal and unchanging (Psalms 119:160). If the way to act according to God's righteousness changed when the Law was given at Sinai or when Jesus came, then God's righteousness would need to change first, but God's righteousness doesn't change. We have much evidence throughout Genesis of many of God's Laws already been in place, so the Law given at Sinai did not change the way to act according to God's righteousness, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do what is righteous.

    Israel was commanded to rest on the Sabbath and I do not see any reason why a holy convocation would be particularly labor intensive. Part of the joy of the Sabbath is preparing ahead of time so that we have time to rest with God.

    Part of the delight of the Sabbath comes from rejoicing in God as a community of believers. In Mark 11:28-30, Jesus was inviting people to become his disciples, which would be to learn from his teachings and his example how to obey the Mosaic Law, and said that they will find rest for their souls, which is a reference to Jeremiah 6:16-19, where God's Law is equated as the good way where we will find rest for our souls.

    In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law. In Romans 1:5, it says that we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires. In Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and trained to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is essentially what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct us how to do, so if we are under God's grace, then we are under God's Law.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  7. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Happy Camper.

    Your argument is based on the text you quoted, yet you have misunderstood this quoted text.

    Matthew 5
    18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until, what is the conditional caveat?

    Now we read the text carefully, the condition is stated, 'till all be fulfilled'.

    Therefore Happy Camper, if even one jot (law) has passed, then, all the law must have passed. Since all things must have been fulfilled in order to remove just the smallest law.

    Now do you understand what the text is saying?

    All things must have already been fulfilled to remove just one law and that is the point.

    Your argument has collapsed based on this one verse.
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The problem with the Mosaic Covenant was not with God's righteous standard or with His instructions for how to live according to His righteous standard, but rather the problem was with the people who broke their covenant because of the hardness of their hearts. So the solution to the problem is not to do away with God's righteous standard, but rather the solution is to do away with what was hindering us from obeying God commands. So the New Covenant is one where God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, write His Law on our heart so that we will obey it, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27, Jeremiah 31:33). In other words, the New Covenant was made so that God's people would stop disobeying His commands like keeping the Sabbath and so that they would be free to live in obedience to it.

    The distinction between following the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is not whether or not the law is obeyed, but rather it is in regard to the manner in which the law is obey with respect to the intention behind it, which is reflected in modern discussion about law enforcement. For example:

    Matthew 23:23 "What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.

    In this verse, the Pharisees were following the letter of the Law by tithing, but they were not following the spirit of the Law because its intention is to teach us how to reflect God's justice, mercy, and faithfulness, and Jesus wanted them to follow the spirit of the Law without neglecting to follow the letter. Paul said that the Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and the deeper spiritual principles of Law are intended to teach us how to reflect the attributes of God to the world, such as His holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7). However, if we outwardly obey the Law without inwardly reflecting the attributes of God, then that leads to death just as assuredly as living in disobedience to the Law.

    The Bible is up front that the Law is a ministry of life and blessing for those who live in obedience to it and a ministry of death and cursing for those who live in disobedience to it (Deuteronomy 30:15-20), so the fact that the Law brings death for disobedience to it is hardly a good reason for you to live in disobedience to it. So the curse of the Law is living in disobedience to and now that we have been set free from the curse of the Law, we are set free to live in obedience to it and to enjoy the life and blessings that it brings. Christ's takes away the veil because a relation with him is the goal of obedience to the Law for everyone who has faith (Romans 10:4).
     
  9. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Pleroo: to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

    In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said he came not to abolish it and warned those who would relax the least of the commands or teach others to do the same, so that includes the ceremonial laws that instruct us how to act according to God's eternal and unchanging holiness. Rather, he said he came to fulfill the law and then proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by causing God's will (as made know in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to redeem us from ceremonial laws, but to redeem us from Lawlessness and to purity for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and His Law in His instructions for how to do good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17, Acts 21:20). So we have been set free from sinning in disobedience to the Law so that be can be free to live in obedience to it (Romans 6:16-19).

    Crosses were never used as a means of doing away with outdated laws, but rather what was written on crosses were the changes against the person being crucified (Matthew 27:37). This fits perfectly the charges against us being nailed to His cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty of our sins, but does not at all fit with doing away with God's holy, righteous, and good standard. Furthermore, if fulfilling something means to do away with it, then according to Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens does away with the Law of Christ. It would also mean in Romans 15:18-19 that when Paul fulfilled the Gospel that he did away with it.
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    While it is true that we are under a New Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God who has the same standard of holiness, righteousness, and goodness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that he gave himself to redeem us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness, and it does not say that that he gave himself to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for rejecting God's instructions for how to do good works, but who are zealous for doing them. Jesus said that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23), so it is completely false that the Old Covenant was ever about not sinning by our own strength based the letter of the laws. God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed His laws while their hearts were far from Him. Jesus began his ministry with the Message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law was given to reveal what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to what God's Law reveals to be sin is a central part of the Gospel message and the New Covenant. Jesus has always been Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath has never been about trusting God once a week.
     
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Acts 15:21, it was expected that Gentiles would continue to learn how to serve God and to walk in His ways by hearing Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. In Colossians 2:16, Paul was writing them to encourage them to continue keeping the Sabbath and God's holy days and to let no man judge them for obeying God's commands. Even if Jesus had said nothing, then he still would have taught full obedience to the Mosaic Law by example, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), so there is no need for any particular command of God to be repeated in order for followers of God to figure out whether they should follow what He has commanded.
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Acts 17:12, it says that many of the believed, so it is false that only a few of them became believers. Saying that there was only a few because we don't have a letter written to them is an argument from silence. In any case, the Bereans were praised for diligently testing everything Paul said against OT Scriptures to see if what he said was true, so it was a good action for them to take and a good example for us to follow. The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times in order to establish that what they said was true and to establish that they didn't deviate from it, so they saw the OT as being foundational to the NT.

    In Acts 15:21, it was expected that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to serve God and to walk in His ways by hearing Moses preached every Sabbath in the synagogues, so they were already keeping the Sabbath in obedience to God's command.
     
  13. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Your post was interesting but it didn't deal with the passage I quoted. Want to give it a go? Here is the passage again so you can keep it fresh in your mind as you reply - if you want to reply.
    Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men; and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such splendour that the Israelites could not look at Moses' face because of its brightness, fading as this was, will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendour? For if there was splendour in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendour. Indeed, in this case, what once had splendour has come to have no splendour at all, because of the splendour that surpasses it. For if what faded away came with splendour, what is permanent must have much more splendour. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendour. But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:1-18
     
  14. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Acts 15 does not say that gentile Christians are expected to keep the seventh day. You may surmise that they went to synagogue to hear Moses preached by Jewish teachers if you want to yet the passage does not say that.
    Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili'cia, greeting. Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." Acts 15:22-29 RSV​
    And the decision of the council (mentioned a few verses earlier in Acts 15) was worded this way:
    Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood. For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues." Acts 15:19-21 RSV​
    It is the Jews, not Christians, who preach Moses every sabbath (seventh day) in the synagogues. The passage makes no claim that Christians gathered in the synagogues with the Jews to hear the Jewish preachers preaching Moses. The truth is that the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem went out of their way to expell Christians from Jewish synagogues. Saul himself (later known as Paul) went to Damascus with the intention of arresting Christians to take them back to Jerusalem to be punished.
    But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2 RSV​
    In the years after Saul's conversion Jewish synagogues were not welcoming places of worship for Christians. The Jews in Thessalonica actively opposed Paul's preaching. They even went to the trouble to travel to Beroea to make sure that he was not welcome there.
    But when the Jews of Thessaloni'ca learned that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Beroe'a also, they came there too, stirring up and inciting the crowds. Acts 17:13 RSV​
    Nowhere in these passages is there any explicit statement that Christians went to synagogue with the Jews in these towns.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  15. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    My experience is most churches teach OT tithing principles and spring your passage as a guilt trip to enforce it. What they do is free will in that they do not enforce it with force.

    bugkiller
     
  16. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Ezekiel 36 concerns resurrected Israel in the millennium. It is not directed at the church. Of course they will have to obey the OC laws (the 'schoolmaster') for a time, which might explain the many scriptures that suggest the reinstatement of the OC laws in the future. Meanwhile the church has moved forward with the true intent and goal of the law which is to perfect righteousness in us, something that the written law cannot do.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  17. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Only those who sit in "Moses' seat" can enforce it, and I don't think Moses' seat exists anymore.
     
  18. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Every church I have ever attended enforce a false tithe of income with your passage via guilt. Surely you do not want to steal from God. The tithe is not welcome in church these days. I think it is Leviticus that lays out the tithe system. It has nothing to do with money.

    bugkiller
     
  19. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    If you only trade with money, it's money.

    Those who study the subject know the tithing law cannot apply to the church, as the Levites are nowhere to be found. However if one can give that much to their church more power to them; it's money well spent.

    Jews Do Not Tithe Today

    "Thankfully, Jewish theologians know better than their Christian counterparts. They are well aware that only Levites have the right to receive tithe of the people. After all, the Jewish leaders have the Old Testament as their Scripture and that’s what it commands. And since there is no Temple in existence (and consequently no ordained Levites or Priests serving in a Temple), then a major factor in fulfilling the laws of tithing does not exist in our modern world."

    The authority of the Jews to determine this is supported by Paul as well in Romans 3:1-2

    1 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?


    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There are 1,050 commands in the NT, so if you think that those four commands are an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of Gentiles, then that would exclude over 99% of the commands in the NT, including those taught by Jesus. The Jerusalem Council did not have more authority than God, so they had no authority to countermand Him by telling Gentiles not to obey any of His commands, nor should Gentiles follow them instead of God if they had tried to do so, and the Jerusalem Council would have been sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 12:32 if they had tried to subtract all but four of God's commands, so it should be clear that it was never intended to be an exhaustive list of everything required for mature believers, but rather as stated it was list intended not to make things too difficult for new believers coming to faith, which they excused by saying that Moses was taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. If the point being made in verse 21 wasn't that they would continue to learn how to serve God, then I don't see see the point of bringing it up.

    When an employer hires a new employee, they don't start by making them memorize up front everything that they will ever need to know about how to do their job, but rather they start with just the basics with the understanding that they will continue to learn the rest on the job, and Acts 15:19-21 is in this same line of thought. Many Gentiles coming out of paganism would have been unfamiliar with God's Law and would have found being required to memorize them all on day one to be overwhelming. However, one of the first things that people are interested in learning when joining a new religion is how to practice that religion, so the issue being discussed in Acts 15 was how they should go about teaching them to do that. In Acts 21:20, it reports that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith and becoming zealous for the Law in accordance with Titus 2:14, so while there certainly were synagogues where Gentiles were not welcome, that would not have been the case everywhere.
     
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