Seventh day observance compulsory?

[klutedavid]

Hello 1stcenturylady.

Thanks for your reply to my previous post.

Yes, I understand.

I assume you mean that Gentiles never had the law, Gentiles cannot be under the law.

However, Paul said we are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. And if we don't have the Spirit we do not belong to Christ.

That is basic Christian doctrine.

There are many who will say look at all I did in your name, but Jesus will say, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness.

Are you referring to the verses in Matthew chapter seven?

John says a Christian does not commit (willful) sin.

Again, could you provide the quotation.

John and Paul both fought against the false doctrines by the Gnostics.

Need your definition of Gnosticism.

They are also the founders of perverted grace, that seems to now be back in the church since the Reformation.

More clarification on what you mean by the phrase, 'perverted grace'.

I certainly hope you haven't been infected. But, I have my suspicions.

I will not know whether I have been infected, until I know exactly what you mean above.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Hello 1stcenturylady.

Thanks for your reply to my previous post.

I assume you mean that Gentiles never had the law, Gentiles cannot be under the law.

That is basic Christian doctrine.

Are you referring to the verses in Matthew chapter seven?

Again, could you provide the quotation.

Need your definition of Gnosticism.

More clarification on what you mean by the phrase, 'perverted grace'.

I will not know whether I have been infected, until I know exactly what you mean above.

I don't know how to do the inserts yet so will do my best to not be confusing.



1. You said: I assume you mean that Gentiles never had the law, Gentiles cannot be under the law.

No, I do not mean that Gentiles never had the law seeing as a Gentile is grafted into the natural olive tree. They must also walk by the Spirit and not succumb to the lusts of the flesh. Do you agree or not? Granted, this has nothing to do with the Sabbath, which we are not required to follow, nor circumcision, or dietary laws which even Jews are not required to follow under the New Covenant. I'm only speaking of the moral law, which is covered under loving our neighbor. If you hate your brother, what are you acting against if not the law?

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

2. You said: That is basic Christian doctrine.

It should be basic Christian doctrine, but not every Christian walks in the Spirit. The question is why not. Answer, they never turned away from their sin, only trusted that Jesus would save them no matter how they lived.


3. You said: Are you referring to the verses in Matthew chapter seven?

Yes.

4. You said: Again, could you provide the quotation. (I said: John says a Christian does not commit (willful) sin.)

1 John 3:4-10
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

5 and 6. You said: Need your definition of Gnosticism. Also perverted grace.

The Gnostics were described in 1 John 4:1-3 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

It is known that the Gnostics did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, only in Spirit. Thus, only sins of the spirit were held against us, and sins of the flesh were not even sins. They could rape and say they had no sin as in 1 John 1:8. They believed they had fellowship with God, but were walking in great darkness. 1 John 1:6. This is also the sin of the Nicolaitans spoken about in Revelation 2 to the churches of Ephesus and Pergamos. They fought them in Ephesus, the church age of the 1st century, but held to their false doctrine by the time the church age of Pergamos came. The Nicolaitans deliberately sinned to receive the most grace. Many today do not believe their sins are held against them, agreeing with the perversion of the Gnostics, that grace abounds toward them. Therefore, as Paul says, shall we sin seeing as we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid!

Recently I was listening to different pastors teach on grace, and was sickened. One was saying God's love toward us is unconditional. Is it? “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." Do you see a condition, or is God's love unconditional?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So let us all become wise and not mock God with our sin.

 

[bugkiller]

1 John 4:1 was speaking specifically of false doctrines about Jesus in the Christian faith. Namely the Gnostics who did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, but only in Spirit form. They also are the founders of perverted grace, which is in the church still today. I doubt you have been infected by it, but there are some in this forum who obviously have been.

Automatic obedience is my own term. Ask yourself what laws or sins the Holy Spirit would lead us into? None. That is why when we walk in the Spirit we are dead to sin, thus are not under the law. Do you see that or not?

There are some in this forum who so accuse without proof.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hi Buggy, what don't you agree with. And in what way does James disagree with walking in the Spirit. The way I see it, God cannot be tempted, nor does He tempt us. Therefore, if you are walking in God, you have power to turn away from temptations and not sin. Do you disagree?

I said James does not agree. I do not think John does either. Yes I agree an individual can have the power to turn away from sin.

bugkiller

 

[1stcenturylady]

I said James does not agree. I do not think John does either. Yes I agree an individual can have the power to turn away from sin.

bugkiller

If you want me to understand what you are referring to you are going to have to give me your interpretation of what you think James is saying and also John. I really would like to know. So far you haven't said anything useful.

 

[bugkiller]

I have already in current posts.

IF you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18.

If you are not lead by the Spirit, you will succumb to the lusts of the flesh, and sin.

The question for you and Bob S. is, do Christians walk after the flesh, or after the Spirit?

Nice in theory. Not quote true in practice. Paul admitted to not having this power in Rom 7.

John says in I Jn 1:9 - If we confess our sin... I John talking about a lifestyle of sin? John includes himself with "we."

James says -
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James is not evangelizing the lost here.

I like Rom 8 and 12 on this issue.

bugkiller

 

[1stcenturylady]

Nice in theory. Not quote true in practice. Paul admitted to not having this power in Rom 7.

John says in I Jn 1:9 - If we confess our sin... I John talking about a lifestyle of sin? John includes himself with "we."

James says -
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James is not evangelizing the lost here.

I like Rom 8 and 12 on this issue.

bugkiller

Romans 7 is not talking about Paul as a Christian, but when Paul was under the law. Read the chapter in context. Who can save him from this body of death. Answer, Jesus. Did Paul have Jesus when he was a Pharisee and was under the law? No. That's what he is talking about.

I hope you answer my question about James and John's writings. Everyone is clueless to what you could mean if you don't say more than your statement.

 

[bugkiller]

The difference is, I don't have to swim upstream under my own power. I have the Holy Spirit in me, and He's a powerful speedboat! That is the difference in our concept of grace.

To you grace is, you don't have to worry about being holy, you are holy no matter what you do, all due to your invisibility cloak that covers your sin. A common teaching today, but Gnostic.

To me grace is the power of God to make me hate sin and He cleanses the sin in me and kills it outright to where I don't have to sin anymore, its power is gone so that I can walk holy. I don't need the law to do right. Jesus died so I might be filled with His Spirit, and do naturally what He would do.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

I for one freely admit I am not above being tempted and giving in. I am with Paul in Rom 7:23-25.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Romans 7 is not talking about Paul as a Christian, but when Paul was under the law. Read the chapter in context. Who can save him from this body of death. Answer, Jesus. Did Paul have Jesus when he was a Pharisee and was under the law? No. That's what he is talking about.

I hope you answer my question about James and John's writings. Everyone is clueless to what you could mean if you don't say more than your statement.

Being you are so knowledgeable I thought surely you would read and discover what I was referring to.

What do you not understand about the verses I posted? The word "we" is in some of them which includes the author. Paul is not talking about his prior life in the last few verses of Rom 7.

bugkiller

 

[1stcenturylady]

Being you are so knowledgeable I thought surely you would read and discover what I was referring to.

bugkiller

Sorry, I left my crystal ball in the garbage. LOL Besides, I already know how I interpret them. I want to know how you do.

 

[bugkiller]

I don't know how to do the inserts yet so will do my best to not be confusing.



1. You said: I assume you mean that Gentiles never had the law, Gentiles cannot be under the law.

No, I do not mean that Gentiles never had the law seeing as a Gentile is grafted into the natural olive tree. They must also walk by the Spirit and not succumb to the lusts of the flesh. Do you agree or not? Granted, this has nothing to do with the Sabbath, which we are not required to follow, nor circumcision, or dietary laws which even Jews are not required to follow under the New Covenant. I'm only speaking of the moral law, which is covered under loving our neighbor. If you hate your brother, what are you acting against if not the law?

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

2. You said: That is basic Christian doctrine.

It should be basic Christian doctrine, but not every Christian walks in the Spirit. The question is why not. Answer, they never turned away from their sin, only trusted that Jesus would save them no matter how they lived.


3. You said: Are you referring to the verses in Matthew chapter seven?

Yes.

4. You said: Again, could you provide the quotation. (I said: John says a Christian does not commit (willful) sin.)

1 John 3:4-10
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

5 and 6. You said: Need your definition of Gnosticism. Also perverted grace.

The Gnostics were described in 1 John 4:1-3 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

It is known that the Gnostics did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, only in Spirit. Thus, only sins of the spirit were held against us, and sins of the flesh were not even sins. They could rape and say they had no sin as in 1 John 1:8. They believed they had fellowship with God, but were walking in great darkness. 1 John 1:6. This is also the sin of the Nicolaitans spoken about in Revelation 2 to the churches of Ephesus and Pergamos. They fought them in Ephesus, the church age of the 1st century, but held to their false doctrine by the time the church age of Pergamos came. The Nicolaitans deliberately sinned to receive the most grace. Many today do not believe their sins are held against them, agreeing with the perversion of the Gnostics, that grace abounds toward them. Therefore, as Paul says, shall we sin seeing as we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid!

Recently I was listening to different pastors teach on grace, and was sickened. One was saying God's love toward us is unconditional. Is it? “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." Do you see a condition, or is God's love unconditional?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So let us all become wise and not mock God with our sin.

I think you answer at least some of your own questions if you stop and think about what you wrote.

bugkiller

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think you answer at least some of your own questions if you stop and think about what you wrote.

bugkiller

..

 

[bugkiller]

Sorry, I left my crystal ball in the garbage. LOL Besides, I already know how I interpret them. I want to know how you do.

The passages I gave are all provisional in structure. For instance John says If we confess our sin. This means we have some sin. If one has no sin this passage is meaningless to them. Again John is not evangelizing the lost here.

James says when.

Paul talks about carnal Christians in Rom 8 and talk about being on the altar in 12. My problem is sometimes that stinking old man seems to come to life and jumps off that altar. Paul so admits in Rom 7. I identify with Paul in this aspect of my Christian life.

The more exclusionary and hermit like behavior aspect of my life the less I have to deal with the influence of sin of others and the temptations they offer. Just today I had to simply walk away from a conversation.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So you don't know what you believe? I know what I believe, and I bet everyone else knows what they believe, why not you?

But don't worry about it if you don't know, and are just throwing out books of the Bible to look cool.

Look I am not really into arguing with some one who presents themselves as right and beyond error. If you seek the truth it will come to you. Sorry about your ideas of me.

bugkiller

 

[1stcenturylady]

The passages I gave are all provisional in structure. For instance John says If we confess our sin. This means we have some sin. If one has no sin this passage is meaningless to them. Again John is not evangelizing the lost here.

James says when.

Paul talks about carnal Christians in Rom 8 and talk about being on the altar in 12. My problem is sometimes that stinking old man seems to come to life and jumps off that altar. Paul so admits in Rom 7. I identify with Paul in this aspect of my Christian life.

The more exclusionary and hermit like behavior aspect of my life the less I have to deal with the influence of sin of others and the temptations they offer. Just today I had to simply walk away from a conversation.

bugkiller

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That has been the case since Adam. But if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Don't you know that is to BECOME a Christian?

Then Romans 6 says we are DEAD TO SIN. Why confess willful sins you are not committing? Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to walk in. But we still have free choice, but sin no longer has a hold on us, so if we willfully sin after becoming dead to sin, we have chosen rebellion over obedience and righteousness. John also says that if you walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, then we have fellowship with God and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. That is without even repenting, because those are sins we don't even recognize.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Do you see the condition? WHO DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Look I am not really into arguing with some one who presents themselves as right and beyond error. If you seek the truth it will come to you. Sorry about your ideas of me.

bugkiller

I'm sorry I wrote that, but it didn't seem you were going to reply. But when I saw you did, I erased it. As for James,

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

When you have the Holy Spirit you can flee temptation. James 4:7 says "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Do you notice that temptation wasn't the sin, it was when you dwell on it. That is the opposite of resisting.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The passages I gave are all provisional in structure. For instance John says If we confess our sin. This means we have some sin. If one has no sin this passage is meaningless to them. Again John is not evangelizing the lost here.

James says when.

Paul talks about carnal Christians in Rom 8 and talk about being on the altar in 12. My problem is sometimes that stinking old man seems to come to life and jumps off that altar. Paul so admits in Rom 7. I identify with Paul in this aspect of my Christian life.

The more exclusionary and hermit like behavior aspect of my life the less I have to deal with the influence of sin of others and the temptations they offer. Just today I had to simply walk away from a conversation.

bugkiller

yes, we are all growing. I'm sorry you identify with Paul in Romans 7, because that was his life BEFORE Christ. You are born again, and all you have to do is ask the Spirit for His power. This is why Jesus told his disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they receive POWER.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

 

[bugkiller]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That has been the case since Adam. But if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Don't you know that is to BECOME a Christian?

Then Romans 6 says we are DEAD TO SIN. Why confess willful sins you are not committing? Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to walk in. But we still have free choice, but sin no longer has a hold on us, so if we willfully sin after becoming dead to sin, we have chosen rebellion over obedience and righteousness. John also says that if you walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, then we have fellowship with God and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. That is without even repenting, because those are sins we don't even recognize.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Do you see the condition? WHO DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Now you seem to be promoting OSAS which I can not subscribe to. I Jn 1:9 is not talking to the unregenerate. I said the verses I posted included provisional requirements and included the author.

What is it about a living sacrifice you do not understand? A living sacrifice has a free will. This living sacrifice is the body of flesh and carnal mind we all still have. Paul explains this jhad (all out) holy war between the flesh (carnal) and the Spirit including our spirit (soul). James talks about the same thing, just a bit differently. Incidentally that is really what is going on here between the factions of law and grace. Every one wins and loses battles. Thus we have I Jn 1:9 and I identify with Paul in Rom 7:23-25.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I'm sorry I wrote that, but it didn't seem you were going to reply. But when I saw you did, I erased it. As for James,

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

When you have the Holy Spirit you can flee temptation. James 4:7 says "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

The problem is we are not always successful in this endeavor. So we have I Jn 1:9.

Do you notice that temptation wasn't the sin, it was when you dwell on it. That is the opposite of resisting.

Are you really that divorced from reality? Surely you must live in a closet. Men and women have very different struggles especially with lust. I really found it hard to believe I was heartily lusted after by a women seeing me in public decently dressed. My sister confirmed women actually do this. Please not I did not say all or even Christian women. My wager is that some truly Christian women have this problem. Our enemy knows us better than we do.

Now I do agree about when a thought becomes sin. James is correct in my personal experience.

bugkiller

 

[1stcenturylady]

Now you seem to be promoting OSAS which I can not subscribe to. I Jn 1:9 is not talking to the unregenerate. I said the verses I posted included provisional requirements and included the author.

What is it about a living sacrifice you do not understand? A living sacrifice has a free will. This living sacrifice is the body of flesh and carnal mind we all still have. Paul explains this jhad (all out) holy war between the flesh (carnal) and the Spirit including our spirit (soul). James talks about the same thing, just a bit differently. Incidentally that is really what is going on here between the factions of law and grace. Every one wins and loses battles. Thus we have I Jn 1:9 and I identify with Paul in Rom 7:23-25.

bugkiller

No, Buggy, I do not subscribe to OSAS at all. After salvation and receiving the Holy Spirit's power over sin, if we choose to rebel and willfully sin, we still can repent and be cleansed of that sin if we truly turn away from it. Otherwise, the wages of sin is death. Does that sound like OSAS?

Do you see that 1 John 1:9 is in between 8 and 10, two scriptures describing the unregenerate Gnostics? Verse 9 is for them to become a Christian, and to those who slip up and unbridle the flesh and rebel. It is not about the regenerate. Remember the next verse after 10 says, My little children, I say all this to you so you WON'T SIN. John certainly thought it was possible. As he also said in 1 John 3:6.

I still see Jesus is the answer to Romans 7:23-25, and why Paul said Romans 8:8-9 about the flesh.

I've been filled with the Spirit for 40 years this year, and, yes, I've slipped, but it is easier to die to the flesh the older I get.