Seventh-day Adventist Church - distinctively Christian doctrines

[BobRyan]

The Christian teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist Church

The Seventh-day Adventist denomination is a decidedly Christian denomination with Bible-based Christian doctrines.

The Doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church are reviewed and voted on by representatives from the entire world wide denomination - every 5 years. And they have remained more or less unchanged from their form at the start of the 1900's.

ChristianityToday identifies the Seventh-day Adventist denomination as the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world - in its Feb 2015 article.

Central doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church include
1. 66 books of the Bible - and Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice.
2. One Gospel - saved by grace through faith - for all of time in both OT and NT.
3. The Protestant day-for-year historicist method of interpreting prophecy
4. Bodily incarnation of God the Son as Jesus Christ, literal bodily resurrection of Christ, literal 2nd coming, literal hell , literal future resurrection of the saints, literal 1000 years millennium, literal lake of fire event after the 1000 years and literal great white throne judgment in Rev 20 as well as a literal New Earth in Rev 21-22.
5. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as the "Triune Godhead" -- all of them eternal, all knowing, all powerful, and all wise. Referred to as "The Trinity" and they alone are God in all the universe (and of course - only 1 universe).
6. Literal 7 day creation of the world less than 10,000 years ago. (Most Adventists believe the world is about 6000 years old).
7. The Atoning Sacrifice of Christ 1 John 2:2 full and complete 2000 years ago .. and it is for "our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the entire world" 1 John 2:2
8. The Bible doctrine of Atonement as we see it in Leviticus 16 includes both the "Atoning Sacrifice of Christ" on the cross as the "sin offering" - but also what Paul calls the "main point' in Hebrews 8:1-6 which is that Christ is now in heaven's Sanctuary as our High Priest "seated at the right hand of the Father"
9. The Gospel preached in all the world and then the end will come - the 2nd coming.. Matthew 24.
10. All Ten of God's Ten Commandments are included in the moral LAW of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 as almost all Christian denominations have affirmed. (including the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith", D.L. Moody, the Catholic Catechism, C.H. Spurgeon, R.C.Sproul etc).
11. All mankind are sinners, all have a fallen nature and all are enslaved to sin apart from the gospel. But the Gospel is offered to all mankind and enables the choice to accept salvation for all - so that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. "If anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.
12. Spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12 are still valid today - but what is popularly called "the gift of tongues" today is not what is found in scripture - not in Acts 2, 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 14 etc, and so that popular form of it is not practiced in the Seventh-day Adventist church.

So Adventists are saying that tongues ARE one of the gifts in 1 Cor 12 and ARE what we find in scripture and are still valid - but what we see popularly practiced today is not the Bible gift of tongues.

Nice group ..

 

[Gary K]

7. The Atoning Sacrifice of Christ 1 John 2:2 full and complete 2000 years ago .. and it is for "our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the entire world" 1 John 2:2

Bob,

Could you expand a little more on #7 that I quoted above? I'm not sure I completely understand what is being said there. I see it as the position taken in the book Questions on Doctrine, which is not the entire position of the SDA church as Christi's ministry for our salvation goes beyond His life, death and atoning sacrifice, here on earth and includes His current ministry for us in the heavenly sanctuary.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

Could you expand a little more on #7 that I quoted above? I'm not sure I completely understand what is being said there. I see it as the position taken in the book Questions on Doctrine, which is not the entire position of the SDA church as Christi's ministry for our salvation goes beyond His life, death and atoning sacrifice, here on earth and includes His current ministry for us in the heavenly sanctuary.

The Seventhday-Adventist doctrine on two-phase atonement is that both the death of Christ on the cross (the atoning sacrifice) and the High Priestly ministry of Christ are needed to complete the full Bible scope of "Atonement". Just as we see in Lev 16 - the Atonement process does not end once the atoning sacrifice is slain/made. It continues with the work of the High Priest.

Thus from Christ cometh all our blessings. His death is an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the great Medium through whom we receive the mercy and favor of God. {OHC 83.5}

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life … Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {GC 483.2}

The subject is inexhaustible. The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last; and looking to heaven with its unnumbered years he will exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness.” {COL 133.4}

 

[BobRyan]

I see it as the position taken in the book Questions on Doctrine, which is not the entire position of the SDA church as Christi's ministry for our salvation goes beyond His life, death and atoning sacrifice, here on earth and includes His current ministry for us in the heavenly sanctuary.

I could not find anything in QoD that says the full scope of Atonement does not also include the ministry of Christ in the sanctuary in heaven that takes place after the atoning sacrifice made on the cross was complete.

The problem we have is that the broader scope for the term "atonement" that you find in the Bible is virtually unknown outside of the Adventist church. They limit all of it to the blood sacrifice - the "Atoning Sacrifice". So when we talk about atonement including the work of Christ in heaven as High Priest - they think we are saying that in heaven Christ dies on the cross "some more". Instead of just saying "my that is odd" we should remind ourselves that their definition of the term only includes the cross.

To have meaning discussion we have to first agree on "the terms" and what they mean.

 

[Gary K]

I could not find anything in QoD that says the full scope of Atonement does not also include the ministry of Christ in the sanctuary in heaven that takes place after the atoning sacrifice made on the cross was complete.

The problem we have is that the broader scope for the term "atonement" that you find in the Bible is virtually unknown outside of the Adventist church. They limit all of it to the blood sacrifice - the "Atoning Sacrifice". So when we talk about atonement including the work of Christ in heaven as High Priest - they think we are saying that in heaven Christ dies on the cross "some more". Instead of just saying "my that is odd" we should remind ourselves that their definition of the term only includes the cross.

To have meaning discussion we have to first agree on "the terms" and what they mean.

Thanks for your reply.

I was just looking for your uinderstanding of the phrase as I understand the historical SDA position pretty well and I agree with the historical position on Christ's ministry and the sanctuary services. That includes the antitypical day of atonement, and that is a doctrine exclusively SDA. I know of no other Protestant denomination that includes it, and the QoD answers from Froom leave that belief out. In fact, I see their answers on that subject leading to the Desmond Ford problems in the church.

The fact is that Christ's work of atonement was not finished and complete at the cross. It goes to far more than benefits from Christ's life, death and resurrection. It includes the investigative judgment for only after that is complete is Christ's work of atonement complete. So I see #7 as being untrue.

The following link is a sermon by Norman McNulty on QoD and how some of the answers from Froom and company led to Desmond Ford's discarding of the investigative judgment. I can see no flaw in his reasoning or his theology.

Give it a listen and let me know what you think.

5. From Questions on Doctrine to Desmond Ford - AudioVerse

 

[BobRyan]

That includes the antitypical day of atonement, and that is a doctrine exclusively SDA. I know of no other Protestant denomination that includes it, and the QoD answers from Froom leave that belief out. In fact, I see their answers on that subject leading to the Desmond Ford problems in the church.

I have that QoD book and it appears to include "Question 36" an entire chapter on the Investigative Judgment as part of the High Priestly ministry of Christ in heaven.

The fact is that Christ's work of atonement was not finished and complete at the cross.

True - but as Ellen White also points out - the Atoning Sacrifice was full and complete at the cross. There is no more sacrificing of Christ being done in heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

The following link is a sermon by Norman McNulty on QoD and how some of the answers from Froom and company led to Desmond Ford's discarding of the investigative judgment. I can see no flaw in his reasoning or his theology.

Ford Claims it was one of the authors of the SDA Bible Commentary - Raymond Cottrell, that threw him off track not QoD.

Cottrell was one of the founding fathers of leftfield Spectrum and AdventistToday

 

[Gary K]

I have that QoD book and it appears to include "Question 36" an entire chapter on the Investigative Judgment as part of the High Priestly ministry of Christ in heaven.



True - but as Ellen White also points out - the Atoning Sacrifice was full and complete at the cross. There is no more sacrificing of Christ being done in heaven.

Actually, she does not say that. You are modifying her statement. Here is her statement from AA page 29.

Christ’s sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete. The condition of the atonement had been fulfilled. The work for which He had come to this world had been accomplished. He had won the kingdom. He had wrested it from Satan and had become heir of all things. He was on His way to the throne of God, to be honored by the heavenly host. Clothed with boundless authority, He gave His disciples their commission, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end.” Matthew 28:19, 20

1. She does not call Christ's sacrifice the Atoning sacrifice.
2. She makes clear, in the very next sentence, that Christ's sacrifice set the condition for our atonement.
3. A condition sets a paramenter for, but is not the same thing as whatever is is setting the parameter for.
3. The work of atonement is carried out in the heavenly sanctuary and Christ is still doing that work.

The minds of believers were to be directed to the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ had entered to make atonement for His people.”—Selected Messages, 1:67

To me, the statement in #7 is like quoting 1Corinthians 1:30 as "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us redemption:". Redemption there is translated from a Greek word meaning "a ransoming", i.e. our justification through Christ purchasing us. It leaves out the entire subject of sanctification which is just as necessary as justification in the plan of salvation.

Also in 1 John 2:2 the word "propitiation" is translated from the Greek word meaning atonement.

Jesus' death on the cross set the condition for our atonement which is His ministry for us in the heavenly sanctuary that will not be complete until after the IJ is complete. To quote that and apply it to only Christ's life and death here on earth is not a truthful representation of His work for us.

 

[BobRyan]

1. She does not call Christ's sacrifice the Atoning sacrifice.
.

That would be surprising given her statements below


Thus from Christ cometh all our blessings. His death is an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the great Medium through whom we receive the mercy and favor of God. {OHC 83.5}

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life … Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {GC 483.2}

The subject is inexhaustible. The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last; and looking to heaven with its unnumbered years he will exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness.” {COL 133.4}

The atoning sacrifice seen through faith brings peace and comfort and hope to the trembling soul weighed down beneath the sense of guilt. The law of God is the detector of sin, and as the sinner is drawn to the dying Christ, he sees the grievous character of sin, and repents and lays hold on the remedy, the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world.--The Review and Herald, Sept. 2, 1890. {7ABC 466.1}

We are not merely to see a way by which to cross the gulf of sin, but we are to appreciate the value of the ransom paid for our souls; we are to realize something of what has been suffered that we might be forgiven, and rescued from destruction. We are to rejoice that the atonement is complete; and believing in Christ as our complete Saviour, we may know that the Father loves us, even as he loves his Son. {RH, November 11, 1890 par. 12}

Christ came as a man, that He might meet men where they are. Had He come in all His glory, human beings could not have endured the sight. "Though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich." He planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. "It is enough," He said. "The atonement is complete." {RH, September 24, 1901 par. 11}

Christ died to make an atoning sacrifice for our sins. At the father's right hand He is interceding for us as our High Priest. By the sacrifice of His life He purchased redemption for us. His atonement is effectual for every one who will humble himself, and receive Christ as his example in all things. If the Saviour had not given His life as a propitiation for our sins, the whole human family would have perished. They would have had no right to heaven. It is through His intercession that we, through faith, repentance, and conversion, are enabled to become partakers of the divine nature, and thus escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.--Manuscript 29, 1906. {7ABC 477.6}

we need to come into close relation with the cross of Calvary. We need to see Christ hanging upon that cross, making an atonement for our sins. When we see and understand our relation to Calvary, we shall know for ourselves something of the grief which, because of sin, Christ knew for us. {RH, May 18, 1905 par. 3}

The sacrifice of Christ as atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster.--Gospel Workers, p. 315. {7ABC 457.1}

Jesus' death on the cross set the condition for our atonement which is His ministry for us in the heavenly sanctuary that will not be complete until after the IJ is complete. To quote that and apply it to only Christ's life and death here on earth is not a truthful representation of His work for us.

The Atoning Sacrifice where the goat of the sin offering is slain in Lev 16 sets the necessary condition/step for the entire process of atonement which includes the work of the High Priest in Lev16 (and so the work of Christ as High Priest in Heaven) - to be completed in its order, in its time. First the atoning sacrifice full and complete - then the atoning work of Christ in heaven on the Day of Atonement -- which when completed - is the state of "Atonement Completed" (At least the part prior to sending the scapegoat out ... which happens after the millennium)

 

[Gary K]

That would be surprising given her statements below


Thus from Christ cometh all our blessings. His death is an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the great Medium through whom we receive the mercy and favor of God. {OHC 83.5}

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life … Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {GC 483.2}

The subject is inexhaustible. The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last; and looking to heaven with its unnumbered years he will exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness.” {COL 133.4}

The atoning sacrifice seen through faith brings peace and comfort and hope to the trembling soul weighed down beneath the sense of guilt. The law of God is the detector of sin, and as the sinner is drawn to the dying Christ, he sees the grievous character of sin, and repents and lays hold on the remedy, the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world.--The Review and Herald, Sept. 2, 1890. {7ABC 466.1}

We are not merely to see a way by which to cross the gulf of sin, but we are to appreciate the value of the ransom paid for our souls; we are to realize something of what has been suffered that we might be forgiven, and rescued from destruction. We are to rejoice that the atonement is complete; and believing in Christ as our complete Saviour, we may know that the Father loves us, even as he loves his Son. {RH, November 11, 1890 par. 12}

Christ came as a man, that He might meet men where they are. Had He come in all His glory, human beings could not have endured the sight. "Though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich." He planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. "It is enough," He said. "The atonement is complete." {RH, September 24, 1901 par. 11}

Christ died to make an atoning sacrifice for our sins. At the father's right hand He is interceding for us as our High Priest. By the sacrifice of His life He purchased redemption for us. His atonement is effectual for every one who will humble himself, and receive Christ as his example in all things. If the Saviour had not given His life as a propitiation for our sins, the whole human family would have perished. They would have had no right to heaven. It is through His intercession that we, through faith, repentance, and conversion, are enabled to become partakers of the divine nature, and thus escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.--Manuscript 29, 1906. {7ABC 477.6}

we need to come into close relation with the cross of Calvary. We need to see Christ hanging upon that cross, making an atonement for our sins. When we see and understand our relation to Calvary, we shall know for ourselves something of the grief which, because of sin, Christ knew for us. {RH, May 18, 1905 par. 3}

The sacrifice of Christ as atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster.--Gospel Workers, p. 315. {7ABC 457.1}



The Atoning Sacrifice where the goat of the sin offering is slain in Lev 16 sets the necessary condition/step for the entire process of atonement which includes the work of the High Priest in Lev16 (and so the work of Christ as High Priest in Heaven) - to be completed in its order, in its time. First the atoning sacrifice full and complete - then the atoning work of Christ in heaven on the Day of Atonement -- which when completed - is the state of "Atonement Completed" (At least the part prior to sending the scapegoat out ... which happens after the millennium)

Well, I'll give you the atoning sacrifce statement as it is true. I had searched for full and complete sacrifice and the AA quote came up. But I see "atoning sacrifice" in terms of logic as necesary but not sufficient. We can't accept one part of the plan without accepting the entire plan of salvation. In other words, justification without sanctification is meaningless and does not place us in a right relationship with God.

The sacrifice of Christ is full and complete, in the idea that no other sacrifice for sin will ever be needed or made. I agree with that idea completely. But the atonement in the sanctuary services here on earth was made inside the sanctuary. Both the sacrifice and the transferrrence of sin took place outside the sanctuary. The rest of the atonement took place inside the sanctuary. It's one of the reasons Jesus died outside the gates on Calvary. The rest of the atonement is made inside the sanctuary. The daily sacrfices and the priest's role inside the sanctuary are also a part and parcel of the atonement. That makes Christ's work in the sanctuary far more than just on the day of Atonement. It means He ministers to, and for, us on a daily basis. It is that work of His that makes us at one with God, if we accept it. For Christ, by God, is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. That is His atonement for us, and that was not completed 2000 years ago. It is an ongoing daily atonement remaking us back into the image of God.

Part and parcel of salvation is receiving the divine nature, i.e. sanctification, by faith. If we do not accept thatt we are not saved for we remain bound to, enslaved by, our human nature without partaking of the divine nature. For the fruit of the Spirit breaks no law.

Here is how I see the entire picture. Jesus' life and death here on earth ransomed us. However, just to ransom us from the clutches of the devil is not enough. He also has to recreate us back into His image on a daily basis or just being purchased is meaningless. For the plan of salvation to be truly meaningful our recreation back into His image must happen.

Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He knew that His sacrifice had been accepted by the Father, and until He had received the assurance from God Himself that His atonement for the sins of His people had been full and ample, that through His blood they might gain eternal life. Jesus immediately ascended to heaven and presented Himself before the throne of God, showing the marks of shame and cruelty upon His brow, His hands and feet. But he refused to receive the coronet of glory, and the royal robe, and He also refused the adoration of the angels as He had refused the homage of Mary, until the Father signified that His offering was accepted.

He also had a request to prefer concerning His chosen ones upon earth. He wished to have the relation clearly defined that His redeemed should hereafter sustain to heaven, and to His Father. His church must be justified and accepted before He could accept heavenly honor. He declared it to be His will that where He was, there His church should be; if He was to have glory, His people must share it with Him. They who suffer with Him on earth must finally reign with Him in His kingdom. In the most explicit manner Christ pleaded for His church, identifying His interest with theirs, and advocating, with love and constancy stronger than death, their rights and titles gained through Him.

God’s answer to this appeal goes forth in the proclamation: “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Every angelic commander obeys the royal mandate, and Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain; and that lives again a triumphant conqueror! echoes and re-echoes through all heaven. The innumerable company of angels prostrate themselves before the Redeemer. The request of Christ is granted; the church is justified through Him, its representative and head. Here the Father ratifies the contract with His Son, that He will be reconciled to repentant and obedient men, and take them into divine favor through the merits of Christ. Christ guarantees that He will make a man “more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.” All power in heaven and on earth is now given to the Prince of life; yet He does not for a moment forget His poor disciples in a sinful world, but prepares to return to them, that He may impart to them His power and glory. Thus did the Redeemer of mankind, by the sacrifice of Himself, connect earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God (The Spirit of Prophecy 3:202, 203).

I just do not see how we can separate the two aspects of salvation by saying the atonement was finished at the cross.

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us.

As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will take hold of the Strong for strength. But we are not to place the responsibility of our duty upon others, and wait for them to tell us what to do. We cannot depend for counsel upon humanity. The Lord will teach us our duty just as willingly as He will teach somebody else. If we come to Him in faith, He will speak His mysteries to us personally. Our hearts will often burn within us as One draws nigh to commune with us as He did with Enoch. Those who decide to do nothing in any line that will displease God, will know, after presenting their case before Him, just what course to pursue. And they will receive not only wisdom, but strength. Power for obedience, for service, will be imparted to them, as Christ has promised. Whatever was given to Christ—the “all things” to supply the need of fallen men—was given to Him as the head and representative of humanity.

The above is a fantastic description of Christ's daily ministry in the heavenly sanctuary for us. It comes from the DoA chapter "Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled". I'm not sure of the page number as I copied this from an ebook. What is justification without this promise? To be like Jesus is something I see as far more valuable than to be declared legally just, legally forgiven. This was not accomplished 2000 years ago. The promise of it was, but not the actuality.

 

[Gary K]

I have that QoD book and it appears to include "Question 36" an entire chapter on the Investigative Judgment as part of the High Priestly ministry of Christ in heaven.



True - but as Ellen White also points out - the Atoning Sacrifice was full and complete at the cross. There is no more sacrificing of Christ being done in heaven.

I also have QoD. I do not see the same things in it that you do. If Froom and company had answered the way you read QoD the questioners would have declared the SDA church a cult for they believed in predestination and that everything was finished at the cross. SDA's have accepted the Arminian position of the ability to choose one's course. The Calvinist's have not. They believe all those choices, destinies, are already made for us.

 

[BobRyan]

I also have QoD. I do not see the same things in it that you do. If Froom and company had answered the way you read QoD the questioners would have declared the SDA church a cult for they believed in predestination and that everything was finished at the cross.

QoD emphasized applying the merits of the blood of Christ to each person as they confessed their sins. In that response for Q36 and the I.J.

Walter Martin was very clear that QoD was telling him - SDAs do not believe in OSAS and that we are not Calvinist. Martin did not have the option of declaring all non-Calvinists a cult (so then the Methodists for example) so he could not come after SDAs simply because we reject OSAS and Calvinism. He knew that would never fly with certain Evangelicals that are also not Calvinist.

QoD p.402 starts a section on Arminianism vs Calvinism and why we are not Calvinists and our I.J. Doctrine is not Calvinist. An entire chapter on that.

But QoD 381 makes a mistake by claiming that Christ did not go to heaven to "obtain" anything for mankind. That was clearly an error -- but it was not the error of saying that the Atoning Sacrifice was full and complete at the cross.

In the Calvinist POV all there is "is the Atoning Sacrifice" - in the Adventist doctrinal position - the sacrifice complete and full as we see it in Lev 16 - is only one phase of a two-phase Day of Atonement process, where first Christ is sacrificed and then Christ is raised to begin his ministry as High Priest. Which Paul says in Heb 8:1 "is the main point in all of this"

 

[Gary K]

QoD emphasized applying the merits of the blood of Christ to each person as they confessed their sins. In that response for Q36 and the I.J.

Walter Martin was very clear that QoD was telling him - SDAs do not believe in OSAS and that we are not Calvinist. Martin did not have the option of declaring all non-Calvinists a cult (so then the Methodists for example) so he could not come after SDAs simply because we reject OSAS and Calvinism. He knew that would never fly with certain Evangelicals that are also not Calvinist.

QoD p.402 starts a section on Arminianism vs Calvinism and why we are not Calvinists and our I.J. Doctrine is not Calvinist. An entire chapter on that.

But QoD 381 makes a mistake by claiming that Christ did not go to heaven to "obtain" anything for mankind. That was clearly an error -- but it was not the error of saying that the Atoning Sacrifice was full and complete at the cross.

In the Calvinist POV all there is "is the Atoning Sacrifice" - in the Adventist doctrinal position - the sacrifice complete and full as we see it in Lev 16 - is only one phase of a two-phase Day of Atonement process, where first Christ is sacrificed and then Christ is raised to begin his ministry as High Priest. Which Paul says in Heb 8:1 "is the main point in all of this"

OK. I understand your position much better. I still see an issue with how number 7 was said for the vast majority of Protestants will read that as the atonement was completed at the cross, and that's just not true. I know it doesn't say that explicitly, now, but it does, in my mind, imply that.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

OK. I understand your position much better. I still see an issue with how number 7 was said for the vast majority of Protestants will read that as the atonement was completed at the cross, and that's just not true. I know it doesn't say that explicitly, now, but it does, in my mind, imply that.

Hi Gary nice to meet you,

I do not know if this is helpful or not but I see harmony in both positions that you and Bob are putting forward and both collective positions are correct and a part of the same work but different phases in regards to the atonement.

This is shown in the old testament scriptures and the new and is represented in the daily sacrifices for sin in the earthly sanctuary (first phase) and the typical annual great day of atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary from the accumulation of sin and the scape goat (2nd phase).

This is a rather long study but in summary we have atonement today through faith, because of Christs sacrifice for our sins on the cross of calvery when he offers his life for ours. This is the first phase of the antitypical atonement which is the same as the daily sacrifice in the old testament scriptures.

The completed atonement and the annual cleansing of the Sanctuary (Yom Kippur) is the second phase of the atonement and does not happen until the cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary from all accumulated sin and all sin has been placed on the scapegoat (Satan) who is held accountable for all the sins of mankind and lead into the wilderness.

Happy to discuss the detail through the scriptures (old and new testamment) if your interested.

God bless

 

[Gary K]

Hi Gary nice to meet you,

I do not know if this is helpful or not but I see harmony in both positions that you and Bob are putting forward and both collective positions are correct and a part of the same work but different phases in regards to the atonement.

This is shown in the old testament scriptures and the new and is represented in the daily sacrifices for sin in the earthly sanctuary (first phase) and the typical annual great day of atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary from the accumulation of sin and the scape goat (2nd phase).

This is a rather long study but in summary we have atonement today through faith, because of Christs sacrifice for our sins on the cross of calvery when he offers his life for ours. This is the first phase of the antitypical atonement which is the same as the daily sacrifice in the old testament scriptures.

The completed atonement and the annual cleansing of the Sanctuary (Yom Kippur) is the second phase of the atonement and does not happen until the cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary from all accumulated sin and all sin has been placed on the scapegoat (Satan) who is held accountable for all the sins of mankind and lead into the wilderness.

Happy to discuss the detail through the scriptures (old and new testamment) if your interested.

God bless

I would like that. Why don't you start off by giving me your view. You don't need to go into an in-depth discussion of it, but just enough to give me the outline of your perception of the concepts.

I love discussing RxF. It's been the main focus of my Bible study for the last 4 decades and it is through that lens that I look at the sanctuary services and Christ's atonement for us.

BTW, I have no real argument with Bob's position after I understood what he was actually trying to say. The only real issue I have with it was the terminology he used as it can be confusing to the reader and can easily be read to mean that Christ's work of atonement was complete at the cross. That's how I read his statement and that's why I asked him for clarification.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

....BTW, I have no real argument with Bob's position after I understood what he was actually trying to say. The only real issue I have with it was the terminology he used as it can be confusing to the reader and can easily be read to mean that Christ's work of atonement was complete at the cross. That's how I read his statement and that's why I asked him for clarification.

Hi Gary, sounds like you have been studing the atonement topic for some time and it sounds like you have a balanced view of the atonement already if you understand the two phases which also include the final cleansing of the Sanctuary and it's references to Yom Kippur from the old testament scriptures.

Terminologies can indeed be confusing sometimes and can lead to misunderstandings. I do not think Bob believes that the atonement was finished at the cross that I have been aware of, only that Christs death makes provision for all atonement.

Thanks for explaining your throughts on the subject as it sounds like you have the same view that I have already outlined in the two phases of the atonement which also includes Christs work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary today and the antitypical great day of atonement.