Setting Revelation a right ????

dan p · Dec 8, 2009

Hi to all , and as we see , many are trying to prove that the Rapture and the Church are in the first 4 Chapters of the book of the Revelation .

1) The Body of Christ it NOT in the first 4 chapters and it is NOT proveable!!

2) The word EKKLESIA , means Congregation or Assembly and NOT Church .

3) This and article that I found on what the first 4 chapters are really saying .

4) There is and interesting connection between the Song of Solomon and the Revelation and there are many of us who believe that Revelation is YET FUTURE .

5) The author who began this study is a Hper-dispensationalist by the name of Bullinger, and indicates that these assemblies will be future and the messages to these 7 assemblies refer to 7 past ohrases of Israel's history .

6) Thus , the literary order of the assemblies in Revelation corresponds with the historical order of the Old Testament . The messages combine into a unified message to remind those in the Tribulation of why and how they got into this predicament , and what the future holds for them .

7) Here is how Bullinger views the 7 assemblies and the Historical reminder of the messages .

Rev assembly--------------Historic reminder----------Assembly name

1) Ephesus --------------the Exodus--------------Desirable

2) Smyrna----------------Wandering--------------Sweet smelling

3) Pergamos--------------Wilderness----------------Marriage

4) Thyatria------------Period of the Kings------------Continual sacfifice

5) Sardis-------------------10 tribes removed---------Remnant escapes

6) Philadephia -------------Judah removed------------Brotherly love

7) Laodicea--------------Minor prophets--------------a righteous people

8) The Revelation letter covers Israel's birth coming ;
#1 , Out of Egypt
#2 , Her wandering
#3 , Her removal
#4 , and the minor prophets who discuss the Tribulation
#5 , and the Kingdom

9) The historic reminders of the messages to these Assemblies and the interpretation of Song of Solomon are similar , it is MERE coincidence . There are 7 key elements in Song of Solomon and 7 Revelation Assemblies and the teachings if both books are wondefully alinged . The parallel teachings shows God's effort to remind Israel of her past and what lies ahead .

10) The names yield the same general theme of historic parallels that Israel must be aware , and they must get on the same page as God .

11) The historical flows proceeds from
#1 , Desirableness and the sweet smell of first love
#2 , to marriage
#3 , Continual sacrifice
#4 , to removal
#5 , the need for brotherly love
#7 , in the Tribulation
#8 , finally to the setablishment of a righteous people in the Kingdom

12) The Song of Solomon can be read , there 9 pages in 3 issues by Steve Shober in the Feb. , Mar ., and April 2008 . Go to www.bereanbiblesociety.org .

13) Basic elements of the story ;
#1 , First love
#2 , Promised Coming
#3 , Warning
#4 , First coming
#5 , Separation
#6 , Final restoration
#7 , Perfect love

13) These 7 elements are the key highlights describing Israel's relationship with God . Elements 1-5 look through the prism of time to reiterate Israel's SORDID Past .

14) Elements 6-7 look over the Horizon of time to what the future holds in store . Today , Israel is in unbelief and temporily set aside ( Rom 11) while God is pouring out His grace upon Jew and Gentile alike in the Age Grace .

nowfaith86 · Dec 8, 2009

dan p said:
Hi to all , and as we see , many are trying to prove that the Rapture and the Church are in the first 4 Chapters of the book of the Revelation .

I do not believe at all that the Rapture is in the first 4 Chapters of Revelation. I do however believe members of the body of Christ are. The book of Revelation was sent to 7 churches and then from there to all churches.

1) The Body of Christ it NOT in the first 4 chapters and it is NOT proveable!!

2 things.

1. Prove that it is not biblically and
2. Your theory and interpretation is NOT PROVEABLE EITHER!!!!!

2) The word EKKLESIA , means Congregation or Assembly and NOT Church .

It does mean assembly, what assembly? The assemblies (Ekklesia) which are in (are in, present tense, currently in) Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (REV.1:11)

3) This and article that I found on what the first 4 chapters are really saying .

The first 4 chapters say what they mean and mean what they say. Prove biblically that they should be taken symbolic.

4) There is and interesting connection between the Song of Solomon and the Revelation and there are many of us who believe that Revelation is YET FUTURE .

Yes there is an incredible connection between the Song of Solomon and Revelation....that is actually one of my favorite topics to study.

Revelation is yet future, at least most of it, but not all of it. Your own theory and interpretation says it speaks somewhat of the past.

Rev. 1:19 - Write the things which thou hast seen (past), and the things which are (present), and the things which shall be hereafter (future);

5) The author who began this study is a Hper-dispensationalist by the name of Bullinger, and indicates that these assemblies will be future

Great some guy says they will be future.....that means nothing to me and proves nothing.......show me where the bibles says they are yet future and I will believe you otherwise, this is false.

and the messages to these 7 assemblies refer to 7 past ohrases of Israel's history.

So the assemblies are future but the messages are past....

Where does the bible say these messages refer to Israel, where does the Bible say these messages deal with Israel's past?

Your belief requires many assumptions.......no proof offered for it yet.

6) Thus , the literary order of the assemblies in Revelation corresponds with the historical order of the Old Testament.

Nice theory, where does the Bible say this? Again another assumption.

The messages combine into a unified message to remind those in the Tribulation of why and how they got into this predicament

I do believe these messages have relevence in the tribulation, but where does it say that these messages are a reminder of Israels past.

and what the future holds for them .

I agree with that these messages hold keys for the future.

7) Here is how Bullinger views the 7 assemblies and the Historical reminder of the messages .

Oh great, more of some guys views instead of taking the Bible for what it says.

Rev assembly--------------Historic reminder----------Assembly name

1) Ephesus --------------the Exodus--------------Desirable

Prove that ephesus speaks of the Exodus biblically

2) Smyrna----------------Wandering--------------Sweet smelling

Prove this.

3) Pergamos--------------Wilderness----------------Marriage

Prove it biblically

4) Thyatria------------Period of the Kings------------Continual sacfifice

5) Sardis-------------------10 tribes removed---------Remnant escapes

6) Philadephia -------------Judah removed------------Brotherly love

7) Laodicea--------------Minor prophets--------------a righteous people

You offer man's opinion with no scripture....if there is not biblical basis to interpret these assemblies that way, then I could care less about some guys views.

8) The Revelation letter covers Israel's birth coming ;
#1 , Out of Egypt
#2 , Her wandering
#3 , Her removal
#4 , and the minor prophets who discuss the Tribulation
#5 , and the Kingdom

Prove this biblically. Again bold claims with no biblical basis for this interpretation.

9) The historic reminders of the messages to these Assemblies and the interpretation of Song of Solomon are similar

Prove this biblically......I have studied the Song of Solomon for a while and especially in context of revelation and end times and do not see this interpretation of song of solomon.

, it is MERE coincidence .

It is not coincidence.....the interpretation is not biblically based, so it is not existant.

There are 7 key elements in Song of Solomon and 7 Revelation Assemblies and the teachings if both books are wondefully alinged .

There is also seven in many things in scripture, it is the number of completion. It doesnt mean all of these things are somehow symbolic of each other.

I see more than 7 key elements to song of solomon, regardless of what some man wrote in a book.

The teaching of the whole bible are wonderfully aligned.......

The parallel teachings shows God's effort to remind Israel of her past and what lies ahead .

Prove it biblically.

10) The names yield the same general theme of historic parallels that Israel must be aware , and they must get on the same page as God .

You say this is all about Israel I have seen the messages to these churches play out in our own day, who's to say your right, just your opinion, that is not something to build a belief on. Take scripture for what it says.

11) The historical flows proceeds from
#1 , Desirableness and the sweet smell of first love
#2 , to marriage
#3 , Continual sacrifice
#4 , to removal
#5 , the need for brotherly love
#7 , in the Tribulation
#8 , finally to the setablishment of a righteous people in the Kingdom

This applies to the Body of Christ as well as Israel.....your theory does not hold up.

12) The Song of Solomon can be read , there 9 pages in 3 issues by Steve Shober in the Feb. , Mar ., and April 2008 . Go to www.bereanbiblesociety.org .

You take a whole lot from people and very litte form the Word of God itself....I'm sorry but I believe the Bible ans what God says over any of the extra-biblical opinions of man that have not biblical proof.

13) Basic elements of the story ;
#1 , First love
#2 , Promised Coming
#3 , Warning
#4 , First coming
#5 , Separation
#6 , Final restoration
#7 , Perfect love

There is more than these 7 in the bible book of song of solomon, not some mans novel about it.........besides all of these appy to the Body of Christ, not just Israel like your theory says.

13) These 7 elements are the key highlights describing Israel's relationship with God . Elements 1-5 look through the prism of time to reiterate Israel's SORDID Past .

These elements describe our relationship to God as well.

PROVE IT BIBLICALLY....Don't just take what some man wrote and taught prove it from scripture.

14) Elements 6-7 look over the Horizon of time to what the future holds in store . Today , Israel is in unbelief and temporily set aside ( Rom 11) while God is pouring out His grace upon Jew and Gentile alike in the Age Grace .

Prove that this only has to do with Israel biblically.
Prove your theory using the bible without mans opinion and I will believe you otherwise it is false.

God Bless

Hismessenger · Dec 11, 2009

Dan, first there is on obvious thing in the first four books. It says to the churches. Are not the churches the body of Christ. On the other side, there is no rapture made mention of in the first four books. There are only allusions to but not confirmation in.

And Nowfaith86, if you read the book of Exodus and then compare the book of Rev. You will see the repeat of many things which occurred in Exodus which are reoccurring in Rev. the plagues, , the removal of the wicked and the salvation of His people in that same order in both books. This is why the doctrines floating around are in error. God has given us a clear picture from beginning to end. Rev is not an end time book but the same story as the book of Duet. God tells them everything which is going to happen to them, but do you think that they would have believed after all that He had just shown them. How many times does he have to show us for us to believe the truth. Exodus, Rev, the parable of the wheat and the tares, the numerous captivities into which Israel went and then were delivered of the afflictions. It is all there when we look at the big picture and stop trying to make the little piece be the big picture. Take the scripture as a whole. It confirms its self in so many ways without any input from man to deceive. Let me correct that, without any input from Satan to deceive. Even the millenium is there in the book of exodus if you have eyes to see and ears to hear. God just showed me that truth because it will be happening again.

hismessenger

Hismessenger · Dec 11, 2009

Want to see a clear picture of the end times. Read the book of Exodus from the chapters beginning with Moses to the entry into the promised land. Be blessed with the truth which it brings forth.

hismessenger

nowfaith86 · Dec 12, 2009

Hismessenger said:
And Nowfaith86, if you read the book of Exodus and then compare the book of Rev. You will see the repeat of many things which occurred in Exodus which are reoccurring in Rev. the plagues, , the removal of the wicked and the salvation of His people in that same order in both books.

I agree and I think the parallels are meant to be understood, but having a parallel between two things and making the book of revelation entirely about Israel because of those parallels are 2 differnet things.

I have spent a significant amount of time in studying Revelation in context of the Old Testament, but that does not make the book of Revelation about Israel alone and not the church.

This is why the doctrines floating around are in error. God has given us a clear picture from beginning to end. Rev is not an end time book but the same story as the book of Duet.

In the case of the Story of the whole Bible you are right, it is all about Jesus....from Genesis to Revelation, but in the context of literal application, it is about end-times.

God tells them everything which is going to happen to them, but do you think that they would have believed after all that He had just shown them. How many times does he have to show us for us to believe the truth. Exodus, Rev, the parable of the wheat and the tares, the numerous captivities into which Israel went and then were delivered of the afflictions. It is all there when we look at the big picture and stop trying to make the little piece be the big picture.

I agree, there is a big picture, but the big picture is made up of the little pieces, so we must see the little pieces or we will never understand the big picture.......

And again understanding the big picture is not the same as making the book of Revelation about Israel excluding the church.......this is false.

Take the scripture as a whole. It confirms its self in so many ways without any input from man to deceive. Let me correct that, without any input from Satan to deceive. Even the millenium is there in the book of exodus if you have eyes to see and ears to hear. God just showed me that truth because it will be happening again.

I agree it all fits together perfectly, but again seeing the parallels that point to Jesus is not the same as making the book of Revelation about Israel, excluding the church.

hismessenger

God Bless

Hismessenger · Dec 13, 2009

Who said anything about excluding the church. When I say His people, I mean the entire body of Christ without separation of Jew and gentile nor male and female, for we are all one in Christ. The church is grafted into The true Israel of God. not the flesh and blood people but those to who the promise is given, those who by faith have accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior. I do believe that you try and read more into what is truly being said.

hismessenger

nowfaith86 · Dec 13, 2009

Hismessenger said:
Who said anything about excluding the church.

Go back and read the OP......Dan P was making the Book of Revelation specifically the first 4 chapters about Israel excluding the church.....my original post was to Dan P, not to you and what you had said.

When I say His people, I mean the entire body of Christ without separation of Jew and gentile nor male and female, for we are all one in Christ. The church is grafted into The true Israel of God. not the flesh and blood people but those to who the promise is given, those who by faith have accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior. I do believe that you try and read more into what is truly being said.

I did not read into anything you said.....I took what the opening post said......and I quote from the OP "1) The Body of Christ it NOT in the first 4 chapters and it is NOT proveable!!" I was responding to this. I do believe you need to read what has been written in context fully through before you post......

hismessenger

God Bless

B1inHim · Dec 14, 2009

nowfaith86 said:
God Bless

Nowfaith 86 would you do us all favor? If you plan to answer an entire post by doing so inside of the post itself in the reply... would you please take the time to copy and paste like this

nowfaith86 said:
Go back and read the OP......Dan P was making the Book of Revelation specifically the first 4 chapters about Israel excluding the church.....my original post was to Dan P, not to you and what you had said.

instead of...

Originally Posted by Hismessenger

Who said anything about excluding the church.

Go back and read the OP......Dan P was making the Book of Revelation specifically the first 4 chapters about Israel excluding the church.....my original post was to Dan P, not to you and what you had said.

When I say His people, I mean the entire body of Christ without separation of Jew and gentile nor male and female, for we are all one in Christ. The church is grafted into The true Israel of God. not the flesh and blood people but those to who the promise is given, those who by faith have accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior. I do believe that you try and read more into what is truly being said.

I did not read into anything you said.....I took what the opening post said......and I quote from the OP "1) The Body of Christ it NOT in the first 4 chapters and it is NOT proveable!!" I was responding to this. I do believe you need to read what has been written in context fully through before you post......

hismessenger

God Bless

It is very hard to read your reply to the post becuase it is inside of the post itself and not separate...even with your reply being a different color.
It takes a lil time but it is so much easier to read. Then of course there is the other way and that is to just simply go to the botton of the post and reply were you always put "GOD BLESS"

Thanks
Love,
Brother Jerry

Hismessenger · Dec 14, 2009

Read the chapters of Due 29 and 30. They foretell of everything which is to befall the people of God The entire body and not just Israel.

hismessenger

Covenant Heart · Dec 14, 2009

Very Different Ideas!

For example, I read words to the effect of -- body of Christ, not in the first four chapters.'

To some, that might constitute "proof."

For myself, what that "proves" is that the phrase "body of Christ" doesn't occur in the Revelation 1-4.

Which brings me to my title:

"What constitutes 'proof?'"

Hismessenger · Dec 15, 2009

The Holy Spirit. And he will confirm it in His word to wit there is no rebutal.

hismessenger

garry2 · Dec 16, 2009

Hismessenger said:
The Holy Spirit. And he will confirm it in His word to wit there is no rebutal.

hismessenger

Then why do so many claiming to be right through the holy Spirit often be shown wrong, such as yourself?

josephearl · Dec 16, 2009

I find it odd that we say things such as, "the Bible interprets the Bible" and "Prove your theory using the bible without mans opinion and I will believe you otherwise it is false."

for if one thinks a moment everything we say think and write except when we quote Scripture is at some point mans opinion of what God means. I bet I could take the Bible and prove some weird things by using Scripture out of context to interpret Scripture. In the end it depends on God making sure we are on the right track and a large part of that has to do with how much time (and how) we pray. It is the one who knows how to abide in the secret place with HIM that oft has the better understanding of Him for the Scripture always points to Him one way or another.

AND Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to reveal to us truth but does He do that to those who only do a drive by in the throne room or does He do that for those who love Him and spend time just waiting on His words day after day, week after week, year after year?

Who has prayed the New Testament apostolic prayers for 10 years day by day, who has fasted seeking revelation on this subject for 20 or 30 days numerous times? That is the man I want to hear from, that is the man whose teachings I will take care to listen to and weigh against the Word for that is the man who has hungered and thirsted for righteousness and truth and God says he will be filled...

I have met few men who are sensitive to the Holy Spirit in such a way that they can accurately discern what Holy Spirit is agreeing to and what He is warning to beware of as far as teachings. As a matter of fact I would say that 90% of the pastors I have observed quench the Spirit just as often as they yield to Him. And those are the people many are learning from!

love ya, JE

Hismessenger · Dec 17, 2009

josephearl,

To listen to any man over the Holy Spirit is blasphemy for the word says to trust no man or else be cursed. God has said in these last days that He would pour out His spirit on all flesh. The spirit is truth to which we can be certain and the written word is His witness. To say that the word means something to which you cannot show the witness to it in the word is to be deceived. That is by the word for Paul said That He would not give anything which the spirit had not confirmed and the only physical confirmation which we have is the written word. The truth is in it if we continually seek His face. Then He will open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing where there isn't enough room in our hearts to receive it. Not these contrived blessings of the apostate church and they are apostate for the word has said so. The word says that God will teach all men which is the outpouring of the Spirit, Not man.

hismessenger

zeke37 · Dec 17, 2009

the church here in Rev?

sure it is!

sure we are!

In Rev1, CHRIST defines the 7 candlesticks as the 7 chruches,
and we see ONLY 2 of the 7 not chastized by Christ in Rev2-3
2 of 7...

later in Rev11, we see 2 candlesticks against the beast,
showing that the church is indeed here...

either apostate/worshiping another (as the 5 of 7 will be)
or faithfull till the end (2 of 7 and part of the two witnesses).

also see Rev12, for Satan is cast here to earth for a short season
and he goes after the believers in Christ...

None of the church is raptured pre or mid trib,
but rather the elect of the church are raptured post trib...

there just is no pre trib rapture, and I used to briefly believe in one

garry2 · Dec 18, 2009

luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hismessenger · Dec 20, 2009

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

hismessenger

garry2 · Dec 21, 2009

Hismessenger said:
hismessenger

[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=10&v=28&i=comm&t=KJV#28"]Mat 10:28

Click to expand...

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/URL]

Yes of course.

[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=12&v=4&i=comm&t=KJV#4"]Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.[/URL]

Yes of course.

[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=21&v=18&i=comm&t=KJV#18"]Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

[/URL]

Yes of course.

vinsight4u · Dec 21, 2009

vinsight4u · Dec 21, 2009

Setting Revelation a right ????

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