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Serpent’s Doctrine

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, May 11, 2018.

  1. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Serpent’s Doctrine

    Hell is the Serpent’s Doctrine that there is eternal life in Hell. Hell being a type of heaven according to Paganism.


    A soul is a body with a spirit. A body without a spirit is dead. Spirit is the nature of a person, place, or thing. Both body and spirit cease to exist as a life force until they are called back into being by God. Every little thing about us is recorded before we die.


    Spirits die with the body. If people were not called back into being by God, they would never live again.


    Isaiah 26:14

    They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


    Matthew 10:28

    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both (soul / spirit) and body in (hell / Gehenna.)

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Ψυχην /soul, psyche, Spirit

    Soul / ψυχή

    Psyche / ψυχή, ψυχοσύνθεση

    Spirit / πνεύμα, ψυχή, διάθεση, οινόπνευμα, φρόνημα, ζωή


    Gehenna / A place of destruction. In a archaeological dig no evidence of continual burning of trash was found. However, potsherds were found; a dump for broken clay pots.


    The Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom." This was known in the Old Testament as Gei Ben-Hinnom, literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom", and in the Talmud as גהנם Gehinnam or גהנום Gehinnom.



    2 Kings 23:10

    He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    2 Chronicles 28:3

    He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    2 Chronicles 33:6

    He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Nehemiah 11:30

    Zanoah, Adullam and their villages, in Lachish and its fields, and in Azekah and its settlements. So they were living all the way from Beersheba to the Valley of Hinnom.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Jeremiah 7:31

    They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Jeremiah 7:32

    So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Jeremiah 19:2

    and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you,

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Jeremiah 19:6

    So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Jeremiah 32:35

    They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
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  2. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Genesis 3:3
    but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Genesis 3:4
    “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I'll go by what Yeshua taught in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, that our spirit survives death.
     
  4. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    This is what Christ said:

    Matthew 10:28

    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both (soul / spirit) and body in (hell / Gehenna.)

    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Ψυχην /soul, psyche, Spirit

    Soul / ψυχή

    Psyche / ψυχή, ψυχοσύνθεση

    Spirit / πνεύμα, ψυχή, διάθεση, οινόπνευμα, φρόνημα, ζωή


    Gehenna / A place of destruction. In a archaeological dig no evidence of continual burning of trash was found. However, potsherds were found; a dump for broken clay pots.


    The Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom." This was known in the Old Testament as Gei Ben-Hinnom, literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom", and in the Talmud as גהנם Gehinnam or גהנום Gehinnom.
     
  5. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Bible specifically states that the wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal conscious torture in Hell.

    I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint.


    The Rich Man and Lazarus
    Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

    22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

    The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person.

    25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

    27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

    29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

    30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
    31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

    These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude the Father in matters of life and death.

    Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. But after the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

    Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
    Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sence to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” is the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.


    Genesis 18:25
    Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

    Luke 20:16
    "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

    Revelation 20:14
    Then death and Hades (Grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

    Revelation 21
    1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
    5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
    6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This (That) is the second death."


    Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.
     
  6. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    How we treat the least of these our brethren has a lot to do with whether we are sent into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels, or sent with the righteous into eternal life.

    Shabbat Shalom!
     
  7. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    When reading a parable a person must take that into consideration. The word "FIRE" is often used as a parable to mean "judgement."

    Revelation 12:9
    The great dragon
    was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his (angels / messengers) with him.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    There are two Dragons, and there are many Satans and Devils.


    The word "FIRE" used as a parable

    This is a short list of the word FIRE being used to mean JUDGEMENT.


    Psalm 78:21
    When the LORD heard them, he was furious; his fire broke out against Jacob, and his wrath rose against Israel,

    Psalm 79:5
    How long, LORD? Will you be angry forever? How long will your jealousy burn like fire?

    Psalm 89:46
    How long, LORD? Will you hide yourself forever? How long will your wrath burn like fire?

    Psalm 104:4
    He makes [winds / spirits] his messengers, flames of fire his servants.

    Isaiah 4:4
    The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

    Isaiah 66:15
    See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    Isaiah 66:16
    For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment on all people, and many will be those slain by the LORD.

    Deuteronomy 32:22. For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of sheol below.

    Amos 7:4
    This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land.

    Hebrews 10:27
    but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

    2 Peter 3:7
    By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.




    The word "fire and lightning" is often used as a parable to mean judgment. In one place the word "coal" means judgment. And where there is smoke there is fire, so the word smoke can also be used as a parable to mean judgment.


    KJV
    Revelation 14:10
    The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    Revelation 14:11
    And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Revelation 20:10
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Revelation 20:14
    And death and hell (grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


    If Hell is done away with in the second death, then how can there be anyone to torment?

    Anyway, the correct translation is "PUNISHMENT," not torture or torment.
     
  8. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Revelation is written in Greek and the word is actually Hades which is the abode of the dead. The verse means there no longer is an abode of the dead as all the dead, having been resurrected, are now either with the Lord, or are thrown into the Lake of Fire. It is the Lake of Fire which is hell.
     
  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    LOL. The words Sheol, Gehenna, and pit, never, ever, translate as Hell. The word Hell is not in the original bible text. Hades is the Pagan god of the underworld. Do you really think Christ and the disciple followed Paganism?
     
  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Comparing the Septuagint to the Masoretic in the Old Testament. The word Hades in the Septuagint is the grave in the Masoretic text. So therefore the correct translation into English would be "grave."
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I know that some translators get sloppy and translate them all as hell. I'm more finely nuanced.

    Sheol simply means the abode of the death. It was a place for spirits to go when they died. In Greek language, the nearest word and concept was Hades. But it is important when you read Hades in the gospels to understand it is simply talking of an abode for the spirits of the dead.

    Gehenna is much, much more detailed a concept. If a person knows Phariseeical teachings and Judaism, one knows that Gehenna is a place of reward or suffering based on one's deeds, but it is a *temporary* place, meant to purify one before the resurrection. At any rate, Yeshua gave a vivid account of this place in his parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

    And then there is the Lake of Fire, prepared for the Devil and his Angels. According to the parable of the sheep and the goats, the unrighteous will be thrown into this. This is where we get the idea of hellfire from.
     
  12. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    You must not be reading the things I write, because I have to keep repeating myself. Anyway, every thing you said is wrong. Where are you getting all of this wrong info?

    Again: Orthodox Judaism has nothing to do with Mysticism, Kabbalah, Hellenism, Gnosticism, or Paganism.
     
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    "The dead know nothing"
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I do want you to know that I have heard you (I simply disagree). Let me know exactly what you think I'm ignoring, and i'll repeat it back in my own words to let you know how closely I'm paying attention. I of course won't repeat back scriptures, only what points you are using them to make. I may reiterate my own beliefs lest any lurker mistake the post to think it to say your views as my own.

    Kabbalah is indeed connected with Orthodox Judaism, although it is certainly not a mandatory part -- one must be a Talmud scholar before one can even begin studies of the Kabbalah. As to Hellenism, Gnosticim, and paganism, I agree. Not sure why you felt you had to mention those points.
     
  15. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps I should have used the term "Ultra Orthodox Judaism." No Kabbalah.
     
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    YEP ...What was the devil’s first lie on Earth?
    Gen 3:4 “The serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die’ ”
    Rev 12:9 “That serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan”

    So many people believe you are alive in death. It is a lie.
     
  17. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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  18. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I wonder where they get the idea that they do not have to wait for the resurrection?
     
  19. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Those who believe in Hell support the Serpent's doctrine against what God says.


    Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


    Genesis 3:3
    but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

    God never said they could not examine the fruit.


    Genesis 3:4
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

    The serpent’s doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell.

    Note: The word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original bible text.





    Deuteronomy 30:15
    See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.


    Deuteronomy 32:39
    "See now that I myself am He! There is no God besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.


    1 Samuel 2:6
    "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.


    Proverbs 2:18
    For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits.


    Proverbs 8:36
    But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."


    Proverbs 11:19
    The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.


    Proverbs 16:25
    There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.


    Proverbs 23:14
    Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.



    Psalm 56:13
    For you have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life.


    Psalm 118:18
    The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death.


    Hosea 13:14
    "I will ransom them from the power of the grave ; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?


    Ezekiel 33:11
    Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'


    Ezekiel 18:32
    I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!


    Ezekiel 18:23
    I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, I am pleased when they turn from their ways and live?


    Matthew 16:28
    I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."


    Mark 9:1
    And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God come with power."


    Luke 9:27
    I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God."


    John 5:24
    "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.


    Hebrews 5:7
    During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.


    Hebrews 6:1
    Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,…


    James 5:20
    remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


    Revelation 1:18
    I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (Gehenna).


    Revelation 6:8
    I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades (Gehenna) was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


    Revelation 20:13
    The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades (grave) gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


    Revelation 20:14
    Then death and Hades (grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.





    Genesis 18:25
    Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in (hell / Gehenna. )


    A soul consist of both body and spirit.


    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.


    Job 27:8
    For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?
     
  20. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    As we all know the bible uses many parables. There is no real Hell, that word was put into scriptures by the Gnostic Pagans. Words like grave, pit, and Gehenna were replaced with the word hell. Those who are condemned to destruction never return. They are cut off for all eternity, never to live again.

    The number of times "Hell" appears in the English Bible
    Translations



    Bible Translations
    Old Testament
    New Testament
    Total's

    "Authorized" King James Version
    31
    23
    54
    New King James Version
    19
    13
    32
    American Standard Version
    0
    13
    13
    New American Standard Bible
    0
    13
    13
    Revised Standard Version
    0
    12
    12
    New Revised Standard Version
    0
    12
    12
    Revised English Bible
    0
    13
    13
    New Living Translation
    0
    13
    13
    Amplified
    0
    13
    13
    New International Version (best-selling English Bible)
    0
    14
    14
    Darby
    0
    12
    12
    New Century Version
    0
    12
    12
    Wesley's New Testament (1755)

    0
    0
    Scarlett's N.T. (1798)

    0
    0
    The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)

    0
    0
    Young's Literal Translation (1891)
    0
    0
    0
    Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)

    0
    0
    Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
    0
    0
    0
    Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
    0
    0
    0
    Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)

    0
    0
    Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
    0

    0
    Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)

    0
    0
    The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)

    0
    0
    Hanson's New Covenant (1884)

    0
    0
    Western N.T. (1926)

    0
    0
    NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)

    0
    0
    Concordant Literal NT (1983)

    0
    0
    The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)

    0
    0
    Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)

    0
    0
    New American Bible (1970)
    0
    0
    0
    Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
    0
    0
    0
    Tanakh. The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
    0

    0
    The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)

    0
    0
    Christian Bible (1991)
    0
    0
    0
    World English Bible (in progress)
    0
    0
    0
    Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)

    0
    0
    0
    Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)

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    Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

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    The word hell was not originally in the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic text, as the so called biased translators have tried to establish it as scripture; but they were not good enough to cover up the reality of what God is saying. The source of this word hell and the concept of eternal torture is not Christian, but Pagan. You can find it in Babylon, in Greece, and especially Rome. But if you dig a little bit deeper you will see that it is bad translations that have infected this doctrine of Damnation in scriptures. As a matter of fact, scripture teaches the opposite.
     
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