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Featured Serious Question, Does God hate "Some" people ?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Jude1:3Contendforthefaith, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    Yes, God hates sinners (Psa. 5:5;11:5, etc). It is a common belief that God only hates the sin and not the sinner, but this is a false dichotomy that doesn't exist anywhere in Scripture. You cannot separate sin from the sinner, not to mention that sin is an expression of our true sinful nature that God abhors in his perfect holiness. This is why we are called 'enemies' of God, it is from this hostility and separation from both sides.

    God has perfect wrath toward us in our sin, and that wrath is fully experienced in the place and state of eternal damnation. Jesus' redemptive work is the divine act of love toward sinners whom he desires to save. God showed an act of love toward the objects of his wrath under the law by punishing his only Son incarnate, pouring out that anger and disgust in him, so that those who are saved may be shown mercy. This isn't to say that the saved were never loved before, but that God's eternal and unchanging love toward them was expressed in time when they were at one point enemies to him and his righteousness. The elect have always been loved, in Christ, before we were ever sinners, in Adam.

    It is true that God loves mankind, but I cannot say that God loves every single individual on the same level or else we reduce the purpose and work of Christ to nothing and have no explanation for hell. If we are all loved the same, we would all be saved the same. Also, God does not actively love someone who is eternally punished and separated from his kingdom forever. That's a contradiction.
     
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  2. JM

    JM pre·des·ti·nar·i·an Supporter

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    Yes, God hates some people.

    Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 defines reprobation thusly;

    REPROBA”TION, n. [L. reprobatio.]

    1. The act of disallowing with detestation, or of expressing extreme dislike.

    2. The act of abandoning or state of being abandoned to eternal destruction.

    When a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience, it is considered as a sign of reprobation.

    3. A condemnatory sentence; rejection.

    Set a brand of reprobation on clipped poetry and false coin.

    Biblically speaking, reprobation should be understood as the justice of God toward the wicked, keeping in mind that all we are ever owed is justice. Salvation is a free gift to the undeserving sinner. The only acceptance we have with God is in Christ Jesus. Outside of Christ there is no salvation, no offering for our sin and no mediator between God and mankind. Those who God shows mercy to will be saved from their just penalty.

    God’s determination to destroy the wicked.

    And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. (Gen 6:5-7)

    God’s justice toward wicked sinners due to their sin.

    For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. (Gen 19:13)

    God raised up Pharaoh with the purpose of destroying him, God showing His power over the wicked, so that it would be “declared throughout all the earth.”

    And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo 9:16)

    Without Christ the continued wickedness of sinners sparks God’s righteous anger toward them.

    Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? (Deu 31:17)

    God only forgives those who belong to Him through Jesus Christ our covenant head. Eli’s house was not to be forgiven even if they followed the Law.

    And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever. (1Sa 3:14)

    Those in Christ, the “Lamb slain before the foundation of world,” are not viewed as wicked sinners. Their sins have been forgiven because of Jesus Christ who is our surety. Surety means our “security or safety.” (Websters 1828)

    God is angry with the reprobate.

    God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. (Psa 7:11)

    Pharaoh was created with a purpose to “to show my power” that it would be declared all over the world. We see the “wicked” were “made” for the “day of evil.”

    The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Pro 16:4)

    The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. (Psa 11:5)

    God owes us nothing. That is the foundation of Gospel grace. The best we can expect is justice and for those who the “Son chooses to reveal himself” will received grace because of Jesus Christ. Those who remain in the flesh will be “destroyed.”

    Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up. (Psa 28:5)

    We often forget how the Gospel, not only saves, but hardens the hearts of reprobate sinners. This is the case in Isaiah 6 where the Prophet is sent to “make the heart of this people fat” to condemn them “lest they see with their eyes, and hear” and be “converted and be healed.” Isaiah is preaching to them for their continued reprobation.

    And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, (Isa 6:9-11)

    The Lord lead Egypt astray. This is divine reprobation.

    The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit. (Isa 19)

    Those Lord actively set out to close the eye of those He rejected. The “Lord hathpoured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes.”

    Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (Isa 29:9-12)

    The Lord our God does in fact reject people for salvation.

    Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them. (Jer 6:30)

    The Prophet gives instructions not to pray for the reprobation. This supports my interpretation of 1 Tim 2 offered in a previous post and exposes the Arminian free will understanding. We are not to pray for “all men everywhere” as if God is hoping to save them, no, we are to pray for all kinds of people including those in authority.

    Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. (Jer 7:16)

    Christ approves of the ministry of Isaiah and continues in the same vain, preaching the Gospel to call the elect while also reprobating and hardening the hearts of the rest of humanity.

    And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:14-15)

    Not everyone who hears the Gospel is given the ability to understanding it. The result is a further hardening of the sinner against God.

    And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (Luk 8:10)

    The reprobate will not understand the Gospel only Christ’s sheep will believe.

    But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (Joh 10:26)

    God is described in the Old and New Testaments as the divine potter who does what He likes with His creation. The Bible teaches that God created “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” That is divine reprobation.

    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (Rom 9:21-22)

    The elect will obtain salvation in Christ by the power and work of the Holy Spirit. The rest will be “blinded.” Literally this means the “rest” were literally hardened against God.

    What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hathobtained it, and the rest were blinded (Rom 11:7)

    The biblical text teaches that God will “send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.” Believing this lie was to make sure they were “damned.” This echoes the events that took place in Isaiah 19 where God lead Egypt astray.

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Th 2:11-12)

    For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jud 1:4)

    Divine reprobation is biblical doctrine, albeit, a difficult one. All doctrine should humble us and make us look to Jesus Christ alone for salvation bringing to light our helplessness and hopelessness without Him.

    Yours it the Lord,

    jm
     
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  3. NDL

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    How do you know that the Sword will be wielded by love?

    How do you know the Swordsman will do so with a broken heart and tears?

    What verses support what you're teaching?

    Not a single one.

    God is not only a God of love; He's a God of justice, yet justice will be loosed only at an appointed time:

    Matthew 8:29: "“What do You want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the proper time?”

    And there are so many other verses which demonstrate that God is a righteous God who will loose justice at an appointed time.

    Have you considered the judgements in Revelation?

    Rev 9:2-6 "And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them."

    ***

    The issue here, is that you are taking *one* aspect of God's person, and applying it to everything. God is a complex being, whose being consists of many shades and textures. Is God love? Yes, He is love. Yet, does God's person encompass other qualities? Of course.

    Unfortunately, you speak from a perspective of "fullness," as if to say that you understand fully, the complexity of God's person, and being.

    How do I say such a thing? Because when others correctly use Scripture to point to different facets of God's characteristics, you refute them.

    Why is this a problem? Because, when it comes to the complexities of God's being, we are limited and bound by what the Scriptures teach us - and the Scriptures only go so far. Remember when Paul was taken into the third heaven, he spoke of things that were "too wonderful to mention" - which speak to empirical knowledge. In other words, when Scripture attests to the fact that "EYE HAS NOT SEEN, NOR EAR HEARD, NOR HAVE ENTERED INTO THE HEART OF MAN THE THINGS WHICH GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." (1 Cor 2:9), it's acknowledging that man, in his finite condition, cannot perceive these things; they're so fantastic that man, even with his imagination, can't paint a proper picture of the heavenly realm.

    The wise solution, in all of this, is to simply acknowledge the various parts of Scripture which point to the complexities which make up the Lord, and to say: "because I am a finite man, I will not be able to reconcile this matter %100 until I come to glory"
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  4. NDL

    NDL Member

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    Does God hate Satan?
     
  5. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    1 John 4:8 ; 1 Corinthians 13 ; John 11:35 ; Matthew 5:44 ; Exodus 15:3 ; John 13:35

    John 5:39-40

    Matthew 23:37-39. (In context Jesus is lamenting)

    The Duplicitous God Theology serves no one honesty. GOD IS LOVE. :)

    When that Warrior fights... He will be desiring mercy, not sacrifice. (Matthew 9:13). When the foolish attempt to fight Him, they will witness God’s Strength and see that the Lamb is a Lion! People mistake His Kindness for Weakness. That’s a bad idea. People mistake His strength for Malice, which is also a bad idea.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. NDL

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    You're saying that I am being duplicitous, which is to say that I consciously purpose to be deceptive.

    Nice.

    God is love. Yes, we agree on this point.

    Does God have any other attributes, or is love God's sole attribute?

    In Matthew 23, Jesus lamented the lost condition of His elect.

    But not everyone is God's elect.

    John 13:5. Jesus wept. Why did He weep? He wept over the pain that His friends were experiencing.

    But not everyone is God's friend.

    Exodus 15:3 says that God is a God of war, although I don't understand your application of this verse.

    Meanwhile, you completely ignored the questions that I had asked, about God loosing judgement during the time of the tribulation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Correct... Only Jacob’s people are specifically elect. I did not call you Duplicitous... but the theology.

    Election in Jesus Christ is accomplished in Jesus Christ, Who was elected before the foundation of it all... to accomplish this. 1 John 2:2

    There is schizophrenic God theology where Jesus is Nice Guy God, While His Father is an Angry God... and this Theology is Duplicitous.

    God is Kind. He’s Kind, not weak. He’s Love, not Hate. Please show me a single verse that says... God is Hate. :)

    All Love in Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and (Isaiah 43:11 ; Luke 2:11), to you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  8. NDL

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    My theology is duplicitous, which says that my theology is purposed to deceive.

    If my fruit is said by you to be deceptive, what does that say about me? Yet in making these strong statements, you claim to wish me love.

    You still sidestepped my questions about God loosing His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation.

    The Father is angry, yet Jesus is a nice guy. You're saying that their personalities are completely different, yet Scripture tells us that the Father and Jesus are of the same essence (1 John 5:7).

    Meanwhile, "nice guy Jesus" is going to destroy the entire the entire earth in the end (2 Thes 2:8).

    You have a one track mind, which is not open to correction.

    You see, for me, the essence of the Lord is very easy to explain: God's personality consists of many different attributes and textures. I can't make sense of it all, however, because I am only a man, with a finite mind.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  9. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    No, I missed an edit, go back to the post. I meant that duplicitous theology states that.

    Jesus fully reveals God and He is not out of harmony with His own teachings.
     
  10. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I said Jesus will use a sword and I typoed. I fixed the post to say my full thought.

    As for the Sword... I have plainly said Jesus will wield it.

    I say all God does will be out of Love. Deepest wrath can come from Love.

    I welcome correction when someone is correct.
     
  11. NDL

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    I do appreciate you bearing with me :).

    Can you explain how loosing wrath is an expression of love? I wish to understand.

    For you see, not one poster has denied the fact that God is love. Here's the problem: you can't reconcile that God is love, yet the way in which He works - His characteristcs - might work in a way that doesn't make sense. So, instead of saying "I, like every other person, can't grasp the magnitude of God," you say that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
     
  12. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate you bearing with me, as well. :) These discussions tend to impact us deeply at our theological cores and perspectives can be vastly different, with intimate understandings of God involved.

    IMO

    The OT Hebrew word translated as Hate in English translations is a word that is actually completely unrelated to the English and Greek meaning of the word, hate.

    The word has to do with exerting effort into something that ends up Harming the one exerting effort. It’s likened to a worker being injured by a tool being used or a Lover that is being cheated on to the point of withdrawing, due to the pain.

    Love also protects and perseveres. When Jesus came the first time... He submitted to death, to defeat death... on the cross.

    When Jesus returns... He no longer has any need to submit to death. Death is defeated... and when the malicious wicked, (though they are, also, His Loved Creations)... rise up against the forgiven and Merciful... with intent to destroy them, in full rejection of mercy... God’s wrath Will be protective of those that are merciful... and rightfully Jilted by those that have spurned His Love.

    A Righteous Lover That is dealt with unrighteously becomes withdrawn and righteously indignant. If the unrighteous, spurning Lover, Unfaithful, were to provoke the Righteous Lover and attempt to destroy all that are loyal to the Righteous Lover... a deep, protective wrath would be outpoured.

    Mankind spurned and shamed Jesus unto death in the gospels. The difference is... The Redeemer will not be “laying down to die”... as God has patiently waited to ensure all that can be led to repentance will have been led to repentance.

    There’s a lot more to this, as it’s essentially an eschatology discussion... but that’s my opinion and a very light surface scratching.
     
  13. NDL

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    I thank you for your explanation, and the time you took to write it. I do not speak Hebrew, and thus take you at your word for the definition as you described it.

    I agree with everything else that you said, (kindly understand, I am spending most of my day in the Carolina sun, as I sand my truck down - so I am a little slow on the uptake)...what disagreement is there between yourself and others?

    I do realize that my statement that you're not open to correction must have come across as arrogant, and for that I apologize, as I didn't mean to come across that way.

    What I meant, however, is that there are a lot of bright minds on this thread, and a lot of disagreement. Why is that so? Why can't we simply reconcile that when we see God as love - which He is - His definition of love might not fall into a way that's easily understood by us.

    Why must we disagree?
     
  14. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    That’s a brilliant question!

    I, too, apologize ... and on my part for being hasty in my answer in a way that didn’t clearly convey what I was intending to say, or responded to the words you have carefully written.

    Carolina Sun, sanding your truck down? That sounds pretty fantastic! What kind of truck?
     
  15. NDL

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    It's a Ranger, and man is that sun hot :)! Going back out in a few...

    If I don't talk with you for the rest of the day, may you have a blessed weekend. And again...thanks for the time you put into your helpful reply. Who knows...maybe i'll take up Hebrew one day:).
     
  16. NDL

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    I also apologize for taking a bit of a "knee jerk" reaction. I don't mean to be redundant in my apologies, but I was wrong, and I wanted to say that publicly.

    For the benefit of everyone else, I also ask this on board (instead of in a DM):

    Did you take Hebrew online, in a college setting, or were you taught Hebrew as your first tongue? Many years ago, I had an Israeli friend, Yoni, and your explanation into the word "love" brought back to remembrance my interest in Judaism.
     
  17. Robin Mauro

    Robin Mauro Active Member

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    I love the scripture about us being impatient, asking God "how long?" and God says he is being patient, that he wants everyone to be saved. I also love the fact that none of us knows exactly what blasphemy of the holy spirit is, so we cannot judge each other.
    So, trust God. He knows things we are not allowed to know in this life, and pray for your enemies. In doing so, we are the children of God.
     
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  18. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I am Jewish by my mother’s blood, but that is as far as my “Hebrew/Jewish” roots go.

    I have attempted to outright studio paleo Hebrew and current Hebrew...

    But, when I speak of studying Hebrew... and it’s root... I mean going through every Hebrew to English interlinear writing I can get my hands on... and studying every Jewish writing I can get my hands on, on the Hebrew passage in focus.

    Grasping at all available translations and paraphrases ... available.

    Going to multiple concordances... from various authors... Going to bible dictionary topical studies on a word.

    And, I don’t arrive at a conclusion until I understand all possible meanings of a words root and usage.

    Anyone can do this. It isn’t some incredible lingual ability on my part. :)

    Above all... we all share this... 1 John 2:27

    All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Sibling in Him.
     
  19. andy b

    andy b Newbie Supporter

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    Not sure about god but some days I'm full of hate
     
  20. ChristianGirl_96

    ChristianGirl_96 Active Member

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    I believe the Holy Spirit only really hates evil unscrupulous people. I’m talking about the people who rape and murder children etc.
     
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