Serious Faith Question

[Monk Brendan]

My thinking would be that baptism is desirable but not mandatory for salvation. I know that some would not agree with this but the key to salvation is acceptance of Jesus as you savior. If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior but lose your life prior to baptism would you assert that you are unsaved?

Jesus commanded us to be baptized.

Nowhere did He command us to accept Him as our Savior.

 

[bling]

Baptism is not salvific. It is merely an outward sign of an inward change. It is a way of signifying one's union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6).

John 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus explained what he meant by "born of water" in the very next verse. "Born of water" refers to physical birth ("born of the flesh"). Likely he is referring to the amniotic fluid that is released from a mother when she is about to give birth. It is still referred to as "water" today when people say, "Oh, her water broke! The baby is coming!"

Look at every time someone comes to Jesus with a comment or question. Jesus does not address necessarily, what is being verbalized, but what that person or persons need to address next in their spiritual development. Jesus sees the deeper thoughts of the person and addresses them.

Do a study of the use of the conjunction “and” in the first century Greek language, with special emphasis on how Jesus used the conjunction. What I have found is “and” is not used like we sometimes use it to refer to the same thing for emphasis, but refers to two separate actions, nouns or groups.

Amniotic fluid would not be considered by the first century Jews to be “water” and is really the baby’s urine. Urine was not ever referred to as “water” either.

Put yourself into the mind of Nicodemus at this time and what he needs to be doing next in his spiritual walk. As a smart leading Pharisee, Nicodemus might have believed John the Baptist was from God and a prophet of God, but he would not have experienced John’s water baptism.

Being “born again” is what Jesus told Nicodemus he need to do. This requires some thinking, because Jesus does not address the questions or comments that are verbalized, but directs his comments to the persons next step in their personal spiritual development (what is on their heart spiritually). Jesus is not making some general philosophical statement (like Buddha might make) but is always addressing the audience He is talking to. We have to get into the context.

What did Nicodemus need to do next in his spiritual development?

What does Nicodemus need to be doing next? (study the Old Testament, become one of the followers of Jesus right then and there, Confess, repent, etc.)

The first thing Nicodemus might do at least is what he already knows he should do? Is that not where you would start? So what is that?

Since Nicodemus is still part of the Sanhedrin, he would not have been immersed baptized by John’s baptism. That would have got him thrown out of the Sanhedrin, but being smart Nicodemus would know he should be baptized.

John’s baptism would have been a hot topic among the religious scholars, yet the answer was obvious and they all know it (remember Jesus using it against them and causing them to quit asking him questions?)

Jesus is not going to hand out the answer to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus knows the answer, but he will make Nicodemus think about it hard, since it would already be on his mind.

 

[Strong in Him]

If my child received a phone from me with a voice plan, she´d only have voice service. If I added a data plan, she´d get data too.

The believers in Acts of the Apostles 19 only had a benefit of being drawn out of the water, the escaping of wrath of Johnś baptism. They never had the benefit of the fire and Holy Spirit of Christ´s baptism, empowering by being IN Christ, activated by being baptised in Jesus´s name. None of the Old Covenant beneficiaries ever received this benefit, it simply was not available to them:

Hebrews 11:13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

If you want to be perfect, move from justification, a step in salvation, to glorification, the teleos of salvation, the final destination of salvation, show the fruit of repentance taught by Christ: turn away completely from depending on mammon for riches that perish, and turn to God for treasures in heaven.

What's that got to do with the fact that Jesus alone saves, and needs no help to complete salvation, and that if a believer dies before they can be baptised, they'll still have eternal life?

 

[Kit Sigmon]

If a person has true faith, but has not been baptized.
Are they born again?

If your answer is yes, then explain where the "born of water" part fits into the persons faith.

John 3:5 brings to my mind that which was prophesied of by prophets Ezekiel
and Isaiah, here: Ezekiel 36:25-27 and Isaiah 44:3.

Holy Spirit of God indwelling the believer when they be born from above,
which be how the thief on the cross was "baptized" and would be in paradise
with Jesus.

In what is called the old testament the punishment for theft be found in:
Exodus 22:1-4.

[The Greek word "léstés" be used for the thieves that hung on the crosses
on both sides of Jesus... léstés, also was associated with Barabbas...so with
that in mind, the thieves who were nailed to crosses were violent men and
their sentences, death on a cross.]

 

[bcbsr]

If a person has true faith, but has not been baptized.
Are they born again?

If your answer is yes, then explain where the "born of water" part fits into the persons faith.

By "born of water" I take it you're referencing John 3 where Jesus is contrasting physical birth (born of the water of the amniotic fluid) versus born of the Spirit. So right at outset I'm disagreeing with your assumption.

As for "If a person has true faith, but has not been baptized." I would ask did Cornelius have true faith, but was born again prior to getting water baptized. Yes indeed. So, there you go.

 

[Wordkeeper]

What's that got to do with the fact that Jesus alone saves, and needs no help to complete salvation, and that if a believer dies before they can be baptised, they'll still have eternal life?

Note that salvation is conditional on showing fruit worthy of repentance, hating the world and loving God, as shown by Zaccheus. Note that salvation in the New Covenant is superior, the Rest that David said yet remaining being made available in it, BUT the requirements were also higher, as taught to the rich young ruler.

Bottomline, no pain, no gain. More pain, more gain. No pain, no baptism. As shown by the refusal by John to baptise those who had not lived sacrificially...

 

[drjean]

One must be 'born of water' to be anything... 'born of water' denotes the physical birth, amniotic fluid we call it.

Jesus says that it is not enough to just be born and then expect to go to heaven because "God is a God of love". One must accept God's gift of salvation (for truly, if you don't take a gift, you don't have it, do you?) The Holy Spirit is Whom draws you to God, to Jesus, and Whom seals you until the day Jesus redeems us all before the throne, and Whom indwells you until that day = born of the Spirit.

 

[Strong in Him]

Note that salvation is conditional on showing fruit worthy of repentance, hating the world and loving God, as shown by Zaccheus.

Salvation is not conditional.
Jesus did not say "the Son of Man has come to seek and save the lost IF they do ......". Or "whoever believes in me AND bears fruit, has eternal life."
God did not ask Jesus to endure the agony of the cross for people who proved by their works that they wanted salvation. Christ died for us when we were sinners, Romans 5:6-8 - apart from God and unable to save ourselves.

 

[Wordkeeper]

One must be 'born of water' to be anything... 'born of water' denotes the physical birth, amniotic fluid we call it.

Jesus says that it is not enough to just be born and then expect to go to heaven because "God is a God of love". One must accept God's gift of salvation (for truly, if you don't take a gift, you don't have it, do you?) The Holy Spirit is Whom draws you to God, to Jesus, and Whom seals you until the day Jesus redeems us all before the throne, and Whom indwells you until that day = born of the Spirit.

Note that being born of water means being drawn out of water, the wrath of God which fell on those left behind by Noah and Israel, the latter rescued because they hated the world system, selfish living. The description is baptism into Moses, ´mashah´, Hebrew for ´water´.

Being born again means not only hating the world but loving God, when He reveals the Way to perfection, picking up the cross. Like Caleb. Like Abraham. Who remembered Gods great works when the cross was picked up. Unfortunately, Israel feared the cross, was afraid that there would be no resurrection...

Hebrews 3:14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

15while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”

16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Salvation is not conditional.
Jesus did not say "the Son of Man has come to seek and save the lost IF they do ......". Or "whoever believes in me AND bears fruit, has eternal life."
God did not ask Jesus to endure the agony of the cross for people who proved by their works that they wanted salvation. Christ died for us when we were sinners, Romans 5:6-8 - apart from God and unable to save ourselves.

The word ¨believe¨ mistranslated today as ¨ägree¨, actually meant ¨be loyal¨ in the Ancient Near East. This included agreeing, but was completely manifested, made perfect, in obedience.

Please don´t perpetuate the impoverished interpretation of the seeker sensitive modern church. Don´t take only the happy-happy, easy-on-the-ears, simplified interpretations employed by the mainline churches in order to lure in the masses and turn them into bigger sons of Satan than they were at first. Take all the other verses into consideration.

 

[112358]

Salvation is not conditional.

is "belief", however you define it, not a condition? If not, then this position leads quickly to the doctrine of universalism. But if one must at least believe in order to receive saving grace, then a condition by definition has been established.

This is my problem with the false doctrine of "faith alone". It demands one thing (belief) as a condition and outright rejects others (baptism) as "works". It defies logic and common sense.

Does God really need your "belief" to save you if He so chooses? I would suggest not. But He established the condition of belief. And He established some others as well.

 

[Serving Zion]

I've been trying for months to get baptized.
I contacted so many churches and they ignore me. (not in person) but emails, messages, etc. I don't have a car, so it's not easy to travel far to a church. The closest one is a 1-2 hour walk. But I don't want to become a member of that church, because I want to stick with my wife's church. I don't tell the church that. All I say is, I'm a new believer in Jesus looking to be baptized. And they ignore.
The closest I've got was a pastor replied, asking when I'm available. I replied and he's ignored since. About a month now.
The only person willing to baptize me, will only do sprinkling. My wife's church.

Wow, what a testimony! "Make every effort to enter by the narrow gate, for many will try to enter but will not be able".

.. can you find a Christian that you trust, maybe it's a colleague or maybe an old school friend, and you can ask them to baptise you. As far as the authority goes, it is Jesus (The Holy Spirit) that you enter covenant with. For that reason, any Christian can have the authority to baptise (1 Corinthians 3:16).

As for John 3:5, consider that Jesus is joining the expression "water and spirit" as one, rather than making a separation between them. Our language is adding a sense of separation there, but when you come to understand how the spirit comes to life, it is breathed into us by the Word of life that comes from The Holy Spirit. He breathes the life into us through the words that change our mind (because words change minds). Those words lead the mind to stop thinking in the defective way and begin thinking in the enlightened way. That is how Jesus said in John 15:3 "you have been made clean by the word I have spoken".

Now get this: Jesus said to the Samaritan woman in John 4, "anyone who drinks the water I give, will never thirst again. If they drink the water I give, it will become a fountain of life within them, overflowing".

But was Jesus handing out cups of water to save people? .. see, it is the Word, that is spirit, that is the "water and spirit". Unless a man is born of water and spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You are baptised not to gain salvation (for Abraham received God's grace before he was circumcised - it is by faith, not works). Rather, read 1 Peter 3:21 "it is a pledge of a clear conscience toward God".

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

Here is a close look at this passage in its context....

D.A. Carson on the meaning of “born of water and of Spirit”

 

[PaulCyp1]

Jesus said we are to be reborn through water and the Spirit, an obvious reference to Baptism.

 

[Not David]

Yes, we have "one baptism for the remission of sins" like the Creed says. However, God isn't limited by the Sacraments and can save people who weren't able to be baptized.

 

[Strong in Him]

The word ¨believe¨ mistranslated today as ¨ägree¨, actually meant ¨be loyal¨ in the Ancient Near East. This included agreeing, but was completely manifested, made perfect, in obedience.

Please don´t perpetuate the impoverished interpretation of the seeker sensitive modern church. Don´t take only the happy-happy, easy-on-the-ears, simplified interpretations employed by the mainline churches in order to lure in the masses and turn them into bigger sons of Satan than they were at first. Take all the other verses into consideration.

There are many verses in the NT which say that if we believe in, look to and accept the Son we have eternal life.
I am not accepting any "impoverished interpretation" - and I am almost certain that stating that certain churches are producing "sons of Satan" counts as flaming.

 

[Nayte]

If a person has true faith, but has not been baptized.
Are they born again?

If your answer is yes, then explain where the "born of water" part fits into the persons faith.

Someone said, just recently I heard, that born of water means born of a woman, meaning born of the womb, filled with water, the fluid you grow in.

 

[Rescued One]

Baptism is not salvific. It is merely an outward sign of an inward change. It is a way of signifying one's union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6).

John 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus explained what he meant by "born of water" in the very next verse. "Born of water" refers to physical birth ("born of the flesh"). Likely he is referring to the amniotic fluid that is released from a mother when she is about to give birth. It is still referred to as "water" today when people say, "Oh, her water broke! The baby is coming!"

That is exactly why I read it that way! 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I've been baptized as a Mormon and again as a Christian. People will still argue about baptism.

 

[eleos1954]

If a person has true faith, but has not been baptized.
Are they born again?

If your answer is yes, then explain where the "born of water" part fits into the persons faith.

There is water baptism where a person chooses to outwardly profess their acceptance of Jesus as their savior.

The is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that can happen before or after water baptism.

I do know in my case ... I was baptized with the Holy Spirit first. I had hit bottom big time, I prayed to the Lord, ask Jesus to come into my life, next day, I had perfect peace. Next several days, my mind was going through like a high-speed sorting process .... this is in ... this is out and I mean constantly for like 4 days, no sleep ... then ... the Holy Spirt impressed on me to get baptized, unbelievably powerful and compelling, took a while to find a church that would baptize me without becoming a member, this was very confusing to me. But, finally was led to a very small church ... they didn't even have a baptistry in the church ... I was baptized on a Easter Sunday in a stock tank .... and I Love that!

So I had the inward baptism of the Holy Spirit first and the outward baptism second.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 3

16 I pray that out of the riches of His glory He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.

"born of water" - water from the Holy Spirit received through faith

Praise the Lord!

 

[okegold]

If a person has true faith, but has not been baptized.
Are they born again?

If your answer is yes, then explain where the "born of water" part fits into the persons faith.