September 23 'sign in the heavens' debunked.
- Thread starter Steve Petersen
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Well, not quite. "This Generation" refers to the ones that see all the final events come to pass. Not the generation of the disciples, referencing Mark 13 / Luke 21. The only reference of "this generation" regarding the disciples was in relation to recognizing His first coming and the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. Matthew 12 / Matthew 23 / Luke 11 / Luke 17.
The "horrors" the disciples would see is in relation to the destruction of Jerusalem. That does not include the tribulation events. Careful reading of the texts, Yeshua does delineate the two. Keep in mind, Yeshua gave part of these prophecies while they were standing near the temple, and later on the Mt. of Olives. They are not one in the same.
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John have received the Revelation in 90 AD ,the destruction of Jerusalem have happened in 70 AD....
The Book of Revelation is not about the destruction of Jerusalem ...
But that is true to say that the destruction of Jerusalem in the generation of the Apostles ...fulfilled the time of Jacob Troubles predicted by Jeremiah or [Daniel] and the people of the prince who shall come to destroy the city and the temple [fulfilling the second part] of Daniel 9:27 and fulfilled the destruction of the Temple predicted by Jesus in Matthew 24:1-22...
As for
That look pretty much like a meteor entering the Earth's atmosphere with billowing fire and water vapor caused by the friction of the meteor with the atmosphere.Rather than about supposed "soldier of fire" in the clouds...
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Forgive me for taking the scriptures for what they say instead of what someone else says they mean.
You still have not addressed the two witnesses. Nor the ability for the whole world to see them in real time from every where on earth. That technology was only recently put into place with satellite tv. I do not know of any time in history where someone has made the entire populace take a number or a mark, on their forehead or right hand, and forbid buying or selling without it.
These steps are central to the "great" tribulation. Similar events may have taken place in the past, that parallel this time of difficulty for Christians... but not like what is coming.
Other things should be clues as well... a mountain falling from the sky and turning 1/3 of the ocean to blood... One third of all sea life dying. Earthquakes that flatten all the mountains. Hail of fire... People crying for death but it will not come..... the list is extensive.
If you think that the events of the "great" tribulation of the Revelation have already occured... you may be in for a surprise.
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Based on the parable of the wise and foolish virgins ....they have all 10 fallen asleep because the Bridegroom tarried...then at midnight a call was made that the Bridegroom cometh...
Those who expect Jesus coming early [before the tribulation]will be caught off guard [Matthew 24:29-31] ...like the 5 foolish virgins who had not enough oil in their lamps.
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Goatee
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John have received the Revelation in 90 AD ,the destruction of Jerusalem have happened in 70 AD....
The Book of Revelation is not about the destruction of Jerusalem ...
But that is true to say that the destruction of Jerusalem in the generation of the Apostles ...fulfilled the time of Jacob Troubles predicted by Jeremiah or [Daniel] and the people of the prince who shall come to destroy the city and the temple [fulfilling the second part] of Daniel 9:27 and fulfilled the destruction of the Temple predicted by Jesus in Matthew 24:1-22...
As for
That look pretty much like a meteor entering the Earth's atmosphere with billowing fire and water vapor caused by the friction of the meteor with the atmosphere.Rather than about supposed "soldier of fire" in the clouds...
Revelation was apparently written before 70AD according to some sources!
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The majority are saying that John received the Revelation in 90 or 92 AD.The Bible tell us clearly that John received the Revelation when he was captive on the Isle of Patmos...not before.
The minority who say before 70 AD are probably from the preterist camp...
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Iranaeus was a student of Polycarp who was a student to John. Iranaeus stated that John wrote the Revelation in approximately middle 90's. I would tend to trust the guy who was a student of the guy who was the student of John. Kinda like believing a professor in college who actually was with Robert Kennedy during the 1968 presidential campaign on what something Robert Kennedy did during that campaign behind the scenes as opposed to a batch of "scholars" sitting around and speculating.
Iranaeus testimony would have higher standing in the court of law.
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That is true. But certain evidence is given more credence that other evidence. All evidence in a court of law does not have equal standing in the court. Iranaeus is about as close to eye witness testimony of the original writer as one can get. And he stated it was during the emperor Domitian's reign. I'll stick with that.
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"If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants!
So my thought here is that our appointed time of the end is split into three parts, split into thirds. These are the three watches of the night, three segments of 420 days, with the third watch being the last watch. The night that Jesus was talking about only had three watches. The first watch was not possible for the Master to come, it would force the tribulation to be too long and violate: "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be". If these days are not "shortened" there will be no flesh saved alive. The only other "great tribulation" that the world had ever seen were in the "days of Noah" where 8 people were sealed in an ark for 371 days, 420 days minus seven sevens or 49 days.
But go back to the watches for a second. Matthew said there were four, not just three. If I think that the appointed time of the end is a 1260 day span split into three Biblical "watches" of 420 days, how do I explain Matthew saying that there is a "fourth watch" of the night. I remember thinking that the "third" watch was the last watch of the night. And so when I remember Matthew 14, it would seem to cause my hypothesis to fail.
"And in the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea.
And even this cool calendar at TorahCalendar.com is showing that there's four, not three, watches in the night.
What seems to be the reason for the confusion and the erroneous use of the Roman Calendar at Torah Calendar is that the Jews have adopted this Roman Calendar in place of the OT one that had been given to them by God during the Exodus. Like how Jesus celebrated Passover on the proper day on the correct specification, while the Jews celebrated it on the erroneous day after because they had adopted the Roman Calendar.
The "morning" watch, mentioned here in Smith's Bible dictionary, is also the "third" watch or the last watch of the night:
Smith’s Bible Dictionary
“Watches of night ”
Watches of night : The Jews, like the Greeks and Romans, divided the night into military watches instead of hours, each watch representing the period for which sentinels or pickets remained on duty.
The proper Jewish reckoning recognized only three such watches, entitled the first or "beginning of the watches," (Lamentations 2:19) the middle watch, (Judges 7:19) and the morning watch. (Exodus 14:24; 1 Samuel 11:11) These would last respectively from sunset to 10 P.M.; from 10 P.M. to 2 A.M.; and from 2 A.M. to sunrise.
After the establishment of the Roman supremacy, the number of watches was increased to four, which were described either according to their numerical order, as in the case of the "fourth watch," (Matthew 14:25) or by the terms "even," "midnight," "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-crowing" and "morning." (Mark 13:35) These terminated respectively at 9 P.M., midnight, 3 A.M. and 6 A.M.
Watches of night - Smith’s Bible Dictionary - Bible Dictionary
Jesus, in Luke 12, would not have been talking about the four Roman "watches" of the night anymore so than He would have celebrated Passover on the erroneous Roman day of the week.
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. - Romans 13:12
Because Jesus said:
"If he comes in the second watch, or in the third,
I think the third watch is the last or morning watch of the night and begins on 11/13 at the conjunction of Jupiter and Venus. From that conjunction until the "darkened" sun in 2019 is 420 days. And if He comes "IN" that watch, the watch will have already begun.
The 371 "days of Noah" would have to begin by the end of the year, by no latter than the very last day of the year because they are defined by the "darkened" sun in 2019. There was a decree by the Knesset in January 1969 to restore the old City of Jerusalem. What Isaac Newton said about Daniel 9 having embedded within the text a provision for two separate comings of Messiah. Seven weeks of years from that modern decree, "the compass of a Jubilee", until messiah the Prince, brings us to January 2019 and the sun is 'darkened" and the moon will not give her light.
From the conjunction of Jupiter and Venus on 11/13, until the last day of the year, marks out seven sevens which cut short the 420 day span until the sun is "darkened' by 49 days, the last seven weeks of this year.
We always have had hurricanes and earthquakes. But when they are said to be the worst in recorded history, it can give reason for pause. I know when I heard of the Mexico quake when driving to work in the morning, I was thinking about it.
But I'm not waiting for a rebuilt "temple", I think that the man of sin has already taken his seat. Jesus said that we'd be buying and selling and marrying and giving in marriage right up until the time when Noah entered the ark. And they were having peace and safety and then sudden destruction came and they will not escape.
"The Son of man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.Peaceful Sabbath.
The key messages in Luke 12 is do not be covetous or greedy and to be ready for when He comes.
Your life does not consist of material things, don't worry about what you will eat, focus on Jesus and be ready for his return. Vs. 36 says "be LIKE men who wait for their master" and take different watches - meaning you don't lose faith when He doesn't come after the first watch, but you hold onto your faith for the 2nd, 3rd or however long it takes. Its metaphorical when using "like" and so this leads up to vs. 39: "... if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would break in, he would have watched ..." Also metaphorical for being ready for His return. In Vs. 40 He sums it up: Therefore, you ALSO BE READY" (DONT GIVE UP WATCHING) for the SON IF MAN is coming at an hour you do not expect."
Your interpretation of these "watches" has led you to literal time periods, which the Lord was not trying to convey to us. It's like thinking we all need to literally keep oil in our lamps, when that parable was symbolic for having the Holy Spirit.
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Luke 12 seems like a collage to me, like an assemblage of different issues and topics. At one area He seems to be speaking to the people whom it is not given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God:
" You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?
And in another area is answering a man who claims his brother has stolen his inheritance:
“Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
It did sound like He was in a busy, crowded and loud place. Speaking to multiple audiences on multiple levels. But when He gets to verse 35, it seems very clear to me that He's talking to us, talking to the last generation who will witness the end times. Notice Peter:
“Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?”
If Peter is unsure of His intended audience, how can we be so sure now?
So you don't think there's any data being concealed, until the time of the end? Five will be divided, three against two and two against three. Two out of three? One third destruction, two thirds of the tribulation spared.
If the 1260 days of our appointed time of the end are split into thirds, three "watches" of 420 days, they would also have to cooperate with the 1290 days span.
It's like Moses with his two or more witness deal. I didn't start out looking for Luke 12, it was more of a case of reverse engineering after finding the 1260, 1290 and 420.
We shall soon see.
We don't have long to wait this time.
It feels like brass tacks time.
I can't relax.
“I came to cast fire on the earth,
and would that it were already kindled!
I have a baptism to be baptized with,
and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!
Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth?
No, I tell you, but rather division.
For from now on in one house there will be five divided,
three against two and two against three.
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Nah !After Sept. 23 2017 will have come and pass like any other days and that nothing ie[no rapture] happened that day....nor in the weeks and months after ...the subject of discussion will change to:
Big Asteroid's Chances of Hitting Earth in 2040 ... - Space.com
The asteroid is also expected to come near Earth in February 2023,
space .com about the asteroid to pas close to earth in 2023 - Google Search
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Two problems, at least, with the Chris Graney's "analysis".
He did not address how Jupiter does a retrograde operation in virgo and remains there for 9 months before exiting. The length of time of a human gestation. All of these lineups, including that one thing sends the probability of it all happening into the stratosphere. Like one chance in 34 billion years.
Also regarding the possibility of 13 stars, there are 13 tribe names in Israel from which to choose. Sometime Joseph is used, and sometimes his sons Ephraim and Mennasah who were adopted by Jacob. Just a little side note.
A gentleman on YouTube who is well noted for "cutting thru the crap" and giving pretty good analysis from a technical bent did a combinatory probability analysis on this sign. I will not try to enlighten you, but let him do it. He put in the legwork, he deserves the credit. This video is current as of today.
He did not address how Jupiter does a retrograde operation in virgo and remains there for 9 months before exiting. The length of time of a human gestation. All of these lineups, including that one thing sends the probability of it all happening into the stratosphere. Like one chance in 34 billion years.
Also regarding the possibility of 13 stars, there are 13 tribe names in Israel from which to choose. Sometime Joseph is used, and sometimes his sons Ephraim and Mennasah who were adopted by Jacob. Just a little side note.
A gentleman on YouTube who is well noted for "cutting thru the crap" and giving pretty good analysis from a technical bent did a combinatory probability analysis on this sign. I will not try to enlighten you, but let him do it. He put in the legwork, he deserves the credit. This video is current as of today.
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What are all you prophecy predictors gonna say when you don't get raptured up on September 23?
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Well, many of us who are looking for this sign are not saying it is conclusively the rapture, or removal of the righteous. That would be cool, and I jokingly tell people that I go out in the yard and jump up and down for rapture practice.
Many of us are simply saying that this sign, along with the dozens of other signs taken into account, along with it happening at the time of Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) which is the next feast day to be fulfilled of those listed in Leviticus 23, that this event is a game changer. A full blown warning to the world that the set time is upon them. If that includes the removal of the righteous, great. I look forward to that. I am not going to stick around. If it isn't, no problem. I just paid my quarterly estimated business taxes and monthly payroll taxes and and getting ready to put in an order for more parts and lubricants for my business equipment. I even signed up for our church's community outreach for October 15th when we go around the community and help elderly and others who cannot do stuff for themselves, like cleaning up yards, cleaning out roof gutters, trimming off tree branches, etc. As a side note, scheduled supper with my Mom for Sat eve the 23rd. If we are still here, will be at her house. If we are not, then we will still have supper courtesy of the greatest host in the universe.
The bigger question is... what if the removal of the righteous does happen at the end of the week and one is still here? I would be far more concerned with that than if the event didn't happen. The time is now for people to make sure they have pitched their tent with Yeshua and are fully in God's favor. Irregardless of what the end of the week brings. After all, some who are on this thread may die tomorrow.
Many of us are simply saying that this sign, along with the dozens of other signs taken into account, along with it happening at the time of Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) which is the next feast day to be fulfilled of those listed in Leviticus 23, that this event is a game changer. A full blown warning to the world that the set time is upon them. If that includes the removal of the righteous, great. I look forward to that. I am not going to stick around. If it isn't, no problem. I just paid my quarterly estimated business taxes and monthly payroll taxes and and getting ready to put in an order for more parts and lubricants for my business equipment. I even signed up for our church's community outreach for October 15th when we go around the community and help elderly and others who cannot do stuff for themselves, like cleaning up yards, cleaning out roof gutters, trimming off tree branches, etc. As a side note, scheduled supper with my Mom for Sat eve the 23rd. If we are still here, will be at her house. If we are not, then we will still have supper courtesy of the greatest host in the universe.
The bigger question is... what if the removal of the righteous does happen at the end of the week and one is still here? I would be far more concerned with that than if the event didn't happen. The time is now for people to make sure they have pitched their tent with Yeshua and are fully in God's favor. Irregardless of what the end of the week brings. After all, some who are on this thread may die tomorrow.
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The same thing I'm saying today, the Rev 12 sign was in the sky on the 23rd.
And the scoffers will all still be too blind to see what had just happened over their heads, literally, and will continue to act like fools.
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