September 23 'sign in the heavens' debunked.

[Steve Petersen]

By Answers in Genesis no less.

Even Answers in Genesis debunks this 'sign.' What Will Happen on September 23, 2017?

 

[Sanoy]

I spent about 2 hours last night watching debunking videos, this is the first one I have seen that makes a reasonable and honest attempt at it. Here is why I think it is still an insufficient rebuttal.

AIG makes 2 points.
1) The individual events of the upcoming constellation alignment are not unique.
2) Leo has more than 9 stars.

1. In Genesis 1:14 God created the luminaries as a time piece for signs and seasons. The heavens have, since ancient times, been used as a clock for seasons. Even in modern times it is used for dating events in history because the heavenly bodies move accurately and reliably in a repeating pattern. So it's not surprising that the individual events are common and recurring. Signs in the heavens work much like a clock. The minute hand of a clock lands on the "12" every hour. The hour hand lands on the "3" every day (- military). However when the hour hand lands on the "3" and the minute hand on the "12" school lets out.

This constellation alignment is the same as the watch on your wrist. None of the positions on your watch are unusual, but only some of those positions are significant. According to those who have used Stelara this particular alignment will not occur again in at least two thousand years. Other alignments occur but nothing that parallels scriptural significance.

2. Wikipedia reports that LEO consists of 9 main stars. (right hand column "Main stars: 9, 15") All constellations contain millions of stars. What matters is what is known as LEO in ancient times.

Although not an official point AIG also hinted at the "no man knows the day or the hour". I used to believe this, and was a pretty staunch repeater of it, however I was made aware about 2 weeks ago that this is an idiom both of Jewish Marital tradition, as well as in reference to the feast of the trumpets. The feast of trumpets, which will start within 9/23 is known as "the day no man knows". It must be observed and cannot be announced until the moon is literally seen. The whereabouts of the Feast of the trumpets can be known, just not the day or hour as it has to be witnessed in real time.

Think of it like a sound in the house. We are supposed to be vigilant because we don't know when the thief will come. Well this is a squeeky floorboard in the room upstairs. Maybe it's an old house, or maybe the thief came through the upstairs window rather than the front door we have all been staring at. The only way to know is to be vigilant of the whole house and check it out diligently.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Jupiter starts its retrograde motion every 399 days and then spends 121 days in that motion. So every 1.1 years, Jupiter spends 30% of its time in retrograde motion. Odds are pretty high that part of that retrograde motion will take place in Virgo (about every three years or so.)

 

[Sanoy]

Jupiter starts its retrograde motion every 399 days and then spends 121 days in that motion. So every 1.1 years, Jupiter spends 30% of its time in retrograde motion. Odds are pretty high that part of that retrograde motion will take place in Virgo (about every three years or so.)

What needs to be calculated is the odds of the whole sign. What are the odds that the moon, the sun, and the 3 wandering stars in Leo are in the correct position and Jupiter performs it's retrograde motion inside Virgo's belly in a scripturaly significant way? The heavens are a clock, the minute and hour hand continually go through positions but only certain times are significant, like 3 o'clock.

Those that have Stelara are saying that this sign, with Jupiter's retrograde motion in the right position, won't happen for at least 2,000 years. (that is how far they looked ahead without a result, it may be further)

I can't say it's going to happen then but the upcoming sign seems very significant and worthy of interest so long as the rarity holds. If it were just a self contained alignment without a scriptural back drop I might not think much of it but it comes with the backdrop of being conceptually equivalent to the actual real world alignment at Jesus's birth described in Rev 12. That chapter includes a second, future part, to the story using the same astrological themes.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Jupiter's relationship to Virgo is fixed. Its ecliptic is such that it will always pass through Virgo's belly, seen form our location. So, we are back to the fact that Jupiter is in retrograde motion for about 1/3 of EVERY year. That 1/3 of every year will result in Jupiter's retrograde motion in Virgo's belly about every third year.

Sun passes through Virgo annually; moon transits Virgo monthly. These three elements are extremely common occurrences.

 

[Steve Petersen]

What 'three wandering stars in Leo' are you referring to? The constellation itself is fixed. There is no apparent motion of the stars the make up Leo.

The only 'wandering stars' we can see are the planets in our solar system. Are you referring to them?

 

[Sanoy]

What 'three wandering stars in Leo' are you referring to? The constellation itself is fixed. There is no apparent motion of the stars the make up Leo.

The only 'wandering stars' we can see are the planets in our solar system. Are you referring to them?

Right they are planets, they appear in Leo giving it enough stars to make 12.

How often do all of these points... sun, moon, stars, retrograde motion etc align?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Revelation 12 Sign - Wikipedia

Biblical signs in the sky? | EarthSky.org

 

[SeventyOne]

By Answers in Genesis no less.

Even Answers in Genesis debunks this 'sign.' What Will Happen on September 23, 2017?

How is that a debunking? Of course elements of the sign have appeared before, but they weren't ever the whole of the sign itself.

This was nearly as bad as the person who declared in a thread that it was debunked by some professor who claimed it's already occurred around 5 times in history (meaning this one has no real value either), but when looking at the other supposed 5 times, every single instance not only was different from the 9/23 alignment, but they were also all different from each other.

The rapture may or may not take place around those days, but it is definitely the Rev 12 sign being shown to us.

 

[Steve Petersen]

How is that a debunking? Of course elements of the sign have appeared before, but they weren't ever the whole of the sign itself.

This was nearly as bad as the person who declared in a thread that it was debunked by some professor who claimed it's already occurred around 5 times in history (meaning this one has no real value either), but when looking at the other supposed 5 times, every single instance not only was different from the 9/23 alignment, but they were also all different from each other.

The rapture may or may not take place around those days, but it is definitely the Rev 12 sign being shown to us.

Where are the twelve stars around the woman's head that constitute here crown? This latest theory has the twelve stars in Leo rather than Virgo.

 

[Sanoy]

Revelation 12 Sign - Wikipedia

I couldn't find on wiki where it gives the odds or the regularity of this sign. The closest I found was this "Jupiter appears in the part of Virgo corresponding to her womb, along with the sun in Virgo and the moon at her feet for a day or two every 12 years or so.""

If I missed it please let me know, as I said I watched 2hours of debunking so I am very interested in hearing the other side. What I see here in Wiki seems to ignore the retrograde 9 months in Virgo, and it is to brief and vague to properly understand. Those with Stelara that speak of this are saying this does not happen again for at least 2,000 years.

Each aspect, the sun, the moon, the 12 stars, Jupiter are all hands on a clock. Each hand on a clock repeats, but it's the alignment of the hands that give report a time. It takes the minute and hour hand to give the sign for 3 o'clock.

 

[Sanoy]

Where are the twelve stars around the woman's head that constitute here crown? This latest theory has the twelve stars in Leo rather than Virgo.

Leo is the crown.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Leo is the crown.

Says who? Based on what?

 

[Sanoy]

Says who? Based on what?

Look at a constellation chart. Leo is above the head of Virgo. The date of Christ's birth can be established by the very astrological alignment of Rev 12.

Everything that is in Rev 12 is in the heavens surrounding Virgo, the crown (Leo + planets), Michael and the dragon in heaven (Ophiuchus - Man wrestling a snake above Virgo on the side of her legs), The dragon thrown down (Hydra - water serpent below virgo), The wings given to the women (Corvus - Bird) even the water the dragon pours out (Crater - Cup...which is even pointed at Virgo)

 

[Steve Petersen]

I need to correct myself. Jupiter transits Virgo every twelve years. The transit through that sign takes about 13 months, but the retrograde motion is still 121 days. That means that the Sun, Jupiter, and the moon are in Virgo every twelve years. The last transit of Virgo by Jupiter took place in 2004/2005.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Jupiter's relationship to Virgo is fixed. Its ecliptic is such that it will always pass through Virgo's belly, seen form our location.

Are you worried about this thing Steve? Does it give you cause for concern?

So, we are back to the fact that Jupiter is in retrograde motion for about 1/3 of EVERY year. That 1/3 of every year will result in Jupiter's retrograde motion in Virgo's belly about every third year.

I was just looking at the Bible's use of thirds. Saul put the people in three companies; and they came into the midst of the host in the morning watch. I was thinking about how the great city was split into three parts, split into thirds.

Jesus said that we would be blessed, if when He comes, he would find us watching. Even if He were to come in the in the second watch, or if He were to come in the third watch. The morning watch was the third watch of the night. If the appointed time of the end were to be split into thirds, it could be three watches of 420 days that added up to a 1260 day duration.

After September, Jupiter leaves the body of Virgo and is joined in a conjunction with Venus. The two brightest objects in our visible sky combine and serve to underscore Jupiter's presence. The Son of Man is revealed. From the day of that conjunction, until the day that the sun will be "darkened", there will be 420 days.

I probably wouldn't know what to do with the Revelation 12 sign, as a stand alone witness. I would need more than one to settle a matter.

"Be you therefore ready also: for the Son of man comes at an hour when you think not.

"Lord," said Peter, "are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"
​

Venus-Jupiter conjunction from Dunedin
I was out and about early evening yesterday and noticed a bright ‘star’ near the western horizon, with another lesser one close to it. It was so unusual I wondered if it was a bright light on a hill, but it was just too high for that.

Venus-Jupiter conjunction from Dunedin

 

[SeventyOne]

Where are the twelve stars around the woman's head that constitute here crown? This latest theory has the twelve stars in Leo rather than Virgo.

What do you mean the latest theory? There's been talk around this coming sign for a number of years now, and no part of it has changed. The 9 primary stars of Leo and the 3 planets, or wandering stars. You do understand our word 'planet' comes from planetai meaning 'wandering stars', right?

 

[Steve Petersen]

What do you mean the latest theory? There's been talk around this coming sign for a number of years now, and no part of it has changed. The 9 primary stars of Leo and the 3 planets, or wandering stars. You do understand our word 'planet' comes from planetai meaning 'wandering stars', right?

Do a Google image search on the constellation Leo, then count the stars that form the different images of Leo. Then come back and tell me how many stars form the image.

leo constellation - Google Search

 

[Sanoy]

Do a Google image search on the constellation Leo, then count the stars that form the different images of Leo. Then come back and tell me how many stars form the image.

leo constellation - Google Search

There are millions of stars in every constellation. Constellation patterns and associations varied across the world. Revelation 12 refers to the Mazzaroth, not google search. It's very easy to tell how many stars are in Leo because of Revelation 12. It describes what the Magi saw, which we can now also see with computers. They saw Jupiter and Venus in conjunction in Leo along with Mercury and that was counted as a crown of 12 stars. Subtract the 3 wandering stars and you get 9. Nine stars are counted for Leo.

 

[Steve Petersen]

There are millions of stars in every constellation. Constellation patterns and associations varied across the world.

But only so many stars actually make up the form of the constellation (Leo in this case.)

It describes what the Magi saw. They saw Jupiter and Venus in conjunction in Leo along with Mercury and that was counted as a crown of 12 stars. Subtract the 3 wandering stars and you get 9.

This is an inference. There are no ancient sources that say such a thing.