Separation of Church and State: Truth

MKalashnikov

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Ok, I'll take the first lie in the link, others can go from here:

United States Treaty (1796-1797)

"[T]he government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"
Atheists/Revisionists love this one, it's textbook ripping a sentence out of context to twist it's meaning. (They do this with the Bible all the time.)


Here is what Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli ACTUALLY Says:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


The atheist revisionist Removes "As" from the First part of the sentence, then cuts out everything past religion. This gives the impression that the treaty is saying something that it isn't.

Article XI simply distinguished America from other Christian European nations who the Muslims believed harbored a deep hatred against them. It was simply ment to assured the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation like those nations and thus would not undertake a religious holy war against them.[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Neat trick on the part of the atheist revisionists isn't it. ;)
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Palavra

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Well, I'll take you on about "separation of church and state." You probably already know that this phrase is nowhere to be found in the Constitution. The actual phrase came from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote about the idea of government not establishing a state religion.
 
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praying

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D. Scarlatti said:
So it was simply meant to assure the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation. Isn't that what the OP said? How does your commentary change that?

I wondered that myself. :confused:
 
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zoink

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cweb255 said:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_founders.html#Separation

OK, now we can get back to our normal daily lives of ignoring the liars who claim that the USA is a Christian nation.
Claiming that the United States is a Christian nation, and the whole concept of Separation of Church and State are two different things.

By the way, what is the definition of Separation of Church and state?

D. Scarlatti said:
So it was simply meant to assure the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation. Isn't that what the OP said? How does your commentary change that?
mhatten said:
I wondered that myself. :confused:
Read dittomonkey911's statement a few more times. It was tough for me to understand at first. I will not try to explain it for him just in case I do not get it exactly right, but I think if you look at it awhile longer you should understand what he was getting at.

Sincerely,
zoink
 
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Blemonds

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ff578

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Zoink said:
Read dittomonkey911's statement a few more times. It was tough for me to understand at first. I will not try to explain it for him just in case I do not get it exactly right, but I think if you look at it awhile longer you should understand what he was getting at.
I think it's pretty simple. When you read the article of the treaty in full it is simply reassurance to the Muslims that America was not like other nations.

It's only saying that America was not founded upon the particular brand of Christian religion that the Muslims had dealt with before.
 
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ff578

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D. Scarlatti said:
How do you get from "not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion" to that?
By reading.

as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

This is simple reading comprehension. American Christianity did not have in itself hatred against the law, religion, or Tranquility of Muslims, and America had never entered into any war or hostile act against a Muslim nation.

Compare this to the European nations the Muslims had dealt with.

Oh and By the way another thing Atheists leave out is that the Treaty of Tripoli ceased to exist when it was later renegotiated with the United States in a much stronger position. The new treaty didn't have anything about not being a Christian nation in it.
 
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D. Scarlatti

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ff578 said:
By reading.
I read it. It says the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. I don't find that terribly difficult to comprehend. But I knew that already from reading the Constitution.

By the way, this has what to do with atheists?
 
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utdbear

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Its very simple. I am a Christian. As a Christian, I am commanded by Jesus to spread His Light, and show it for the world to see. I am also an American, and as an American, I have the responsibility to vote. I watch the candidates, one candidate proudly proclaims his faith in the same Jesus I do, and showing Jesus' light held high, while another one goes through great pains to not have that mentioned in his presentations. If the other candidate is a Christian, why is he holding Jesus' light under a blanket for nobody to see, and why as a Christian should I be encouraged to vote for someone like that because he has 'a plan'? I don't agree with everything the candidate I voted for has done, but if anybody were to ask him who is faith is in, he would say Jesus. That right there is enough to get my vote over someone who shields and hides his faith.
 
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EvilDr.Frog

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Here is how Article 11 of the Treaty or Tripoli seems to me:

From these three assumptions,

1. the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion
2. it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen
3. the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation

...it follows that:

it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

dittomonkey and ff578, I still don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that statements 2 and 3 somehow influence the apparent meaning of statement 1?
 
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Sors

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I have to agree with the atheists here. It seems pretty obvious what they are saying. The US was NOT founded on Christianity.

If historic research is done, you might find that the United States was highly influenced by the Christian religion. The Puritan work ethic plays a large part in the way capitalism functions. Christianity has influenced the this nation in many ways, but make no mistake, it was not founded on Christianity.

It was founded on ideas presented by rights theorists such as Locke and Rosseau.

Sors
 
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Acquired Tastes

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The words "Separation of Church and State" are nowhere to be found in the Constitution. The First Amendment only prohibits Congress from establishing a religion. Liberal organizations like the ACLU, and liberal judges have interpreted that as they see fit. Kids praying in school, or having a cross on a city seal, does NOT establish a religion.

I agree that the US wasn't founded on Christianity, but that does not mean we should completely eliminate Christianity in this nation.
 
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EvilDr.Frog

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Acquired Tastes said:
The words "Separation of Church and State" are nowhere to be found in the Constitution. The First Amendment only prohibits Congress from establishing a religion. Liberal organizations like the ACLU, and liberal judges have interpreted that as they see fit. Kids praying in school, or having a cross on a city seal, does NOT establish a religion.

I agree that the US wasn't founded on Christianity, but that does not mean we should completely eliminate Christianity in this nation.
The words "separation of church and state" isn't found in the Constitution, that is correct. It is found in a letter by president Thomas Jefferson explaining to the Danbury Baptist Association why he would not proclaim a day of fasting and thanksgiving.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
The bracketed text was marked for deletion to avoid offending members of his party.

This letter illustrates the intention of the First Amendment, that religion must remain spearate from the state, and it has been interpreted by the courts as so.

It is a common myth that secularists want to prohibit school children from publically praying. However, it is only a myth, and the truth is that secularists want only to prevent public school teachers and principals from leading school children to pray.

You believe that having a cross on a city seal does not establish a religion. However, a cross on a city seal seems, in my opinion, to be the plainest example of such.
 
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cweb255

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utdbear said:
Its very simple. I am a Christian. As a Christian, I am commanded by Jesus to spread His Light, and show it for the world to see. I am also an American, and as an American, I have the responsibility to vote. I watch the candidates, one candidate proudly proclaims his faith in the same Jesus I do, and showing Jesus' light held high, while another one goes through great pains to not have that mentioned in his presentations. If the other candidate is a Christian, why is he holding Jesus' light under a blanket for nobody to see, and why as a Christian should I be encouraged to vote for someone like that because he has 'a plan'? I don't agree with everything the candidate I voted for has done, but if anybody were to ask him who is faith is in, he would say Jesus. That right there is enough to get my vote over someone who shields and hides his faith.
What a strawman! Kerry has indeed proclaimed he was a Christian, but unlike the hypocrite in office, Kerry actually follows Jesus' words, and not merely gives him lipservice. "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." Matthew 6:5-6
 
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cweb255

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I never said the words separation of church and state are found in the constitution, I was merely saying that the founders of this country did not want to make it a Christian nation by giving the link noted.

And yes, the Treaty of Tripoli states very clearly that this is not a Christian nation, period. Any interpretation otherwise is dishonest and quite pathetic.
 
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