Senator Josh Hawley (R-MO): "Some will say I am advocating Christian nationalism, and so I am.”

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
28,754
13,494
Seattle
✟946,424.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
If Christians are correct, then God allows me free will to follow his laws or not. It amazes me how many Christians believe he is mistaken and would force me to follow their understanding of Gods morality.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
141,442
25,515
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,767,819.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
If Christians are correct, then God allows me free will to follow his laws or not. It amazes me how many Christians believe he is mistaken and would force me to follow their understanding of Gods morality.
Not sure where you came up with that, but God commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins. And sin is not following God’s laws.
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,222
6,472
✟292,551.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

Recipe for theocratic dictatorship. And chaos.

Christian nationalism as expressed in that document would necessarily entail abolition of freedom of speech/expression, end freedom of the press, end freedom of religion (or freedom from religion) and end freedom of association.

Political, judicial and social/cultural life would be tied to a Church-defined orthodoxy.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
141,442
25,515
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,767,819.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Recipe for theocratic dictatorship. And chaos.

Christian nationalism as expressed in that document would necessarily entail abolition of freedom of speech/expression, end freedom of the press, end freedom of religion (or freedom from religion) and end freedom of association.

Political, judicial and social/cultural life would be tied to a Church-defined orthodoxy.
You must have read the wrong link.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
20,095
16,871
Flyoverland
✟1,089,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
That is a definition designed to exclude Catholics, who aren't wanted in any part of their 'Christian nation'. Catholics need not apply. Good to know.

"We affirm that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, revealed in Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone."

You can believe that if you wish but it effectively excludes me. I accept parts of it, nuanced properly, but not straight as it is here. Each 'sola' is designed to be anti-Catholic even while I affirm grace and faith and Christ and Scripture ad maiorem Dei gloriam as a believing Catholic.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
141,442
25,515
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,767,819.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
That is a definition designed to exclude Catholics, who aren't wanted in any part of their 'Christian nation'. Catholics need not apply. Good to know.

"We affirm that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, revealed in Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone."

You can believe that if you wish but it effectively excludes me. I accept parts of it, nuanced properly, but not straight as it is here. Each 'sola' is designed to be anti-Catholic even while I affirm grace and faith and Christ and Scripture ad maiorem Dei gloriam as a believing Catholic.
You’ll still be welcome.
 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
18,589
11,637
Earth
✟165,789.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Sen. Josh Hawley (R-MO) spoke at 2024’s National Conservatism conference — better known as NatCon — and made a bold declaration in support of Christian Nationalism.

Speaking from the podium during NatCon 4’s gala dinner on Monday, Hawley stated: “Some will say I am calling America a Christian nation, and so I am. Some will say I am advocating Christian nationalism, and so I am.”

From NatCon:

Where a Christian majority exists, public life should be rooted in Christianity and its moral vision, which should be honored by the state and other institutions both public and private. ... Adult individuals should be protected from religious or ideological coercion in their private lives and in their homes. [But obviously not necessarily in their dealings with the aforementioned state and other institutions.]
Bring it Senator Hawley
 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
18,589
11,637
Earth
✟165,789.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
What's that got to do with anything? No one needs random bible quotes.
I am edified any time I see a Christian post scripture, thinking it helps their point.
 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
18,589
11,637
Earth
✟165,789.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Not sure where you came up with that, but God commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins. And sin is not following God’s laws.
People have ”free will” to not use free will?
My!
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,222
6,472
✟292,551.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
You must have read the wrong link.

No, I read it quite closely. For all the many internal contradictions and inconsistencies, at its core the document envisions recreating the US as a theocratic authoritarian state where only Christians are able to play any sort of a role in political, legal or civil leadership.

It would impose religious law - specifically the Ten Commandments - as the basis for all civil law and all society in the US.

"We affirm that God's moral law is enduring and binding on all people throughout all time, including civil authorities and nations, and that it is summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments."
...
"WE DENY any attempt to segregate sacred aspects of life, where God’s Word is authoritative, and supposedly secular aspects of life, where the Christian must operate by a standard other than God’s Word."
...​
"We further deny that the moral obligations of civil magistrates as dictated by the scriptures are contingent upon any particular eschatological framework. In other words, regardless of the timeline and circumstances by which one believes Christ will return, full obedience to Christ today is an indisputable obligation of all magistrates."
...​
"WE DENY that the purpose of civil government is to establish a secular, neutral, or godless order. We deny that any government is capable of neutrality ... We further deny that natural law is a different standard from God’s moral and universal law summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments. "
...​
We affirm that the specific, short-term priorities of Christian Nationalism in the context of the United States are to call our nation, in her laws .... [blah, blah blah then a list of alt-right grievances and conspiracy theories here]​
...​
WE AFFIRM that the Christian Nationalist project entails national recognition of essential Christian Orthodoxy (Article II) as a Christian consensus under Jesus Christ, the supreme Lord and King of all creation, and the establishment of the Ten Commandments as the foundational law of the nation.
...
"We deny the idea that a nation’s laws do not impose morality and religion."

That would require a complete retooling of all US laws. No natural law, no principle of neutrality, no secularism, no equal treatment for non-Christian beliefs. Applying the 10 commandments as a legal code would eliminate freedom of religion, end freedom of speech and at the very least imperil freedom of the press. It would theoretically also require the courts to police thought crimes (no coveting, no disrespecting parents).

Christian nationalism, as summarised in that document, would effectively bar non-Christians from all political life:

WE DENY the authority of civil officials and documents to contradict what God has said in His Word or to govern beyond the bounds God’s Word has established for them."
...​
"We deny that civil authorities may ... but must be uniquely protective of the free exercise of the Christian faith according to the dictates of conscience under the orthodox Christian faith."
...​
"We affirm that the Church is to instruct civil authorities regarding their identity and duties as servants before the throne of Christ."
The Church gets to instruct civil authorities. If you have a political view that's different to those of Christians, you're out on your ear mate. No Buddhists, no Muslims, no Hindus, no atheists, no Satanists. No equality, "orthodox" Christians only, all others begone. So, that's freedom of association gone.
It would end comprehensive, secular education:
WE DENY that civil authorities are tasked with being the caretakers of citizens or educators of children, as these duties belong primarily to the Church and to families, respectively. We deny that the civil government should endeavor to take on these responsibilities, and we deny that they do so to the benefit of society.

Having worked briefly as a teacher, and longer as a tutor, I can tell you that the above is an absolute load of cobblers.


I could go on, but with so many failings to list, this post would be nearly endless. I'll just say in summary that the document is flying mammal guano levels of crazy. It makes Agenda 2025 look well thought out, reasoned and restrained.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
141,442
25,515
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,767,819.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
No, I read it quite closely. For all the many internal contradictions and inconsistencies, at its core the document envisions recreating the US as a theocratic authoritarian state where only Christians are able to play any sort of a role in political, legal or civil leadership.

It would impose religious law - specifically the Ten Commandments - as the basis for all civil law and all society in the US.

"We affirm that God's moral law is enduring and binding on all people throughout all time, including civil authorities and nations, and that it is summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments."
...
"WE DENY any attempt to segregate sacred aspects of life, where God’s Word is authoritative, and supposedly secular aspects of life, where the Christian must operate by a standard other than God’s Word."
...​
"We further deny that the moral obligations of civil magistrates as dictated by the scriptures are contingent upon any particular eschatological framework. In other words, regardless of the timeline and circumstances by which one believes Christ will return, full obedience to Christ today is an indisputable obligation of all magistrates."
...​
"WE DENY that the purpose of civil government is to establish a secular, neutral, or godless order. We deny that any government is capable of neutrality ... We further deny that natural law is a different standard from God’s moral and universal law summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments. "
...​
We affirm that the specific, short-term priorities of Christian Nationalism in the context of the United States are to call our nation, in her laws .... [blah, blah blah then a list of alt-right grievances and conspiracy theories here]​
...​
WE AFFIRM that the Christian Nationalist project entails national recognition of essential Christian Orthodoxy (Article II) as a Christian consensus under Jesus Christ, the supreme Lord and King of all creation, and the establishment of the Ten Commandments as the foundational law of the nation.
...
"We deny the idea that a nation’s laws do not impose morality and religion."

That would require a complete retooling of all US laws. No natural law, no principle of neutrality, no secularism, no equal treatment for non-Christian beliefs. Applying the 10 commandments as a legal code would eliminate freedom of religion, end freedom of speech and at the very least imperil freedom of the press. It would theoretically also require the courts to police thought crimes (no coveting, no disrespecting parents).

Christian nationalism, as summarised in that document, would effectively bar non-Christians from all political life:

WE DENY the authority of civil officials and documents to contradict what God has said in His Word or to govern beyond the bounds God’s Word has established for them."
...​
"We deny that civil authorities may ... but must be uniquely protective of the free exercise of the Christian faith according to the dictates of conscience under the orthodox Christian faith."
...​
"We affirm that the Church is to instruct civil authorities regarding their identity and duties as servants before the throne of Christ."
The Church gets to instruct civil authorities. If you have a political view that's different to those of Christians, you're out on your ear mate. No Buddhists, no Muslims, no Hindus, no atheists, no Satanists. No equality, "orthodox" Christians only, all others begone. So, that's freedom of association gone.
It would end comprehensive, secular education:
WE DENY that civil authorities are tasked with being the caretakers of citizens or educators of children, as these duties belong primarily to the Church and to families, respectively. We deny that the civil government should endeavor to take on these responsibilities, and we deny that they do so to the benefit of society.

Having worked briefly as a teacher, and longer as a tutor, I can tell you that the above is an absolute load of cobblers.


I could go on, but with so many failings to list, this post would be nearly endless. I'll just say in summary that the document is flying mammal guano levels of crazy. It makes Agenda 2025 look well thought out, reasoned and restrained.
I’m already on board. You don’t need to convince me.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
20,095
16,871
Flyoverland
✟1,089,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
You’ll still be welcome.
Why thank you. But the documentation make it kind of like my being welcome AFTER converting to their religion. I have to pass.

My political vision differs a bit. Actually a lot. It is in keeping with traditional European Christian Democrat policies where one can be Catholic or Protestant or Jewish or even nothing at all. Presumably also Muslim, but the traditional Christian Democrats didn't have to contend with that issue seventy years ago. I wouldn't have to pidgin hole myself into a particular Protestant creedal statement that doesn't fit me. All to be a part of a form of nationalism. At least it isn't National SOCIALISM.

My political vision aligns best with the American Solidarity party, a tiny thing because the two big parties have a habit of vacuuming up all of the Oxygen in the room to keep it for themselves. But the ASP isn't Christian Nationalist. It has those Christian Democrat roots after all.
 
Upvote 0

BCP1928

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2024
3,146
1,759
81
Goldsboro NC
✟189,228.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
So in what way is that throwing Catholics back under the bus?
Back to being "second class" Christians like they were before Paul Weyrich arranged a detent with Fundamentalist Protestant denominations over Row v. Wade. Christian Nationalists don't think they need Catholics any more as fellow Christians so it's back to the status quo ante.
 
Upvote 0

BCP1928

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2024
3,146
1,759
81
Goldsboro NC
✟189,228.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
You’ll still be welcome.
Yes, I'm sure you would be very gracious about welcoming people you consider to be non-Christians to your Christian country--as long as they remember who they have to be grateful to for that concession.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hans Blaster

Aimless blade of science
Mar 11, 2017
16,521
13,082
54
USA
✟323,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Back to being "second class" Christians like they were before Paul Weyrich arranged a detent with Fundamentalist Protestant denominations over Row v. Wade. Christian Nationalists don't think they need Catholics any more as fellow Christians so it's back to the status quo ante.
I'm looking forward to this divorce.
 
Upvote 0

wing2000

E pluribus unum
Site Supporter
Aug 18, 2012
21,474
17,996
✟1,476,747.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"WE DENY that the purpose of civil government is to establish a secular, neutral, or godless order. We deny that any government is capable of neutrality ... We further deny that natural law is a different standard from God’s moral and universal law summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments. "

...as though Americans have completely forgotten why we declared Independence from a "God ordained" monarchy. SMH
 
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
28,754
13,494
Seattle
✟946,424.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Not sure where you came up with that, but God commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins. And sin is not following God’s laws.
Last I checked he gives us free will to follow his commands or not. Many Christians would try to enforce it.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Innsmuthbride
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
141,442
25,515
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,767,819.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Why thank you. But the documentation make it kind of like my being welcome AFTER converting to their religion. I have to pass.

My political vision differs a bit. Actually a lot. It is in keeping with traditional European Christian Democrat policies where one can be Catholic or Protestant or Jewish or even nothing at all. Presumably also Muslim, but the traditional Christian Democrats didn't have to contend with that issue seventy years ago. I wouldn't have to pidgin hole myself into a particular Protestant creedal statement that doesn't fit me. All to be a part of a form of nationalism. At least it isn't National SOCIALISM.

My political vision aligns best with the American Solidarity party, a tiny thing because the two big parties have a habit of vacuuming up all of the Oxygen in the room to keep it for themselves. But the ASP isn't Christian Nationalist. It has those Christian Democrat roots after all.
Some day it will all be worked out.
 
Upvote 0