Self esteem vs Orthodox worldview

Hermit76

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I've heard "self esteem" thrown around a lot in certain circles. Some have said that the concept is not compatible with Orthodox Theology.

We do need a certain amount of positivity of self in our lives. I tend to shut down easily when I don't have confidence in myself when doing a job. Most of the time when I push on things turn out fine.

How should we discuss, name, and approach this while keeping a healthy view of our own humanity as seen through proper theology?
 

zippy2006

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The Desert Fathers saw self esteem as a slippery sin, and compared it to Luke 11:25-26. The idea was that as the hesychast gained proficiency he would root out all of the sins, but this rooting out and proficiency had a tendency to produce a more subtle sin: the sin of self esteem. It's the sin of, "Oh man, I'm so great that I rooted out all of my passions!"

It seems to me that in our culture "self esteem" means having a kind of hope that you are capable of doing certain things. People who do not have self esteem have despaired of their own ability to act. It's hard to say how the two definitions interact. Surely it's a balance.
 
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AMM

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it's a balancing act. we are sinners who do no good on our own, and yet we are so beloved by God He died for us.
We have to balance between despair and pride, right? And if our self esteem is “healthy” or “good”, that’s only because it’s not self esteem per se, but rather faith in God?
 
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rusmeister

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“The most alarming thing in your last account of the patient is that he is making none of those confident resolutions which marked his original conversion. No more lavish promises of perpetual virtue, I gather; not even the expectation of an endowment of 'grace' for life, but only a hope for the daily and hourly pittance to meet the daily and hourly temptation! This is very bad.

I see only one thing to do at the moment. Your patient has become humble; have you drawn his attention to the fact? All virtues are less formidable to us once the man is aware that he has them, but this is specially true of humility. Catch him at the moment when he is really poor in spirit and smuggle into his mind the gratifying reflection, 'By jove! I'm being humble', and almost immediately pride--pride at his own humility--will appear. If he awakes to the danger and tries to smother this new form of pride, make him proud of his attempt--and so on, through as many stages as you please. But don't try this too long, for fear you awake his sense of humour and porportion, in which case he will merely laugh at you and go to bed.”
CS Lewis, “The Screwtape Letters”
 
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ArmyMatt

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We have to balance between despair and pride, right? And if our self esteem is “healthy” or “good”, that’s only because it’s not self esteem per se, but rather faith in God?

yep.
 
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Hermit76

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The Desert Fathers saw self esteem as a slippery sin, and compared it to Luke 11:25-26. The idea was that as the hesychast gained proficiency he would root out all of the sins, but this rooting out and proficiency had a tendency to produce a more subtle sin: the sin of self esteem. It's the sin of, "Oh man, I'm so great that I rooted out all of my passions!"

It seems to me that in our culture "self esteem" means having a kind of hope that you are capable of doing certain things. People who do not have self esteem have despaired of their own ability to act. It's hard to say how the two definitions interact. Surely it's a balance.
I think you're on to something about the definitions. Word usage doesn't always seem to line up. A lot of times "self esteem" sounds like biblical pride. Other times the modern usage is something different entirely
 
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Hermit76

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I'm going to do something that is very dangerous on a message board... I'm going to think out loud for a minute.
Perhaps the modern phenomena of "self-esteem" comes from modern humanity's tendency to over-think everything. I analyze to a fault. Every word, action, job, or interaction is cause for analysis in my mind. It is very tiring and seems very unnecessary when I read the Fathers.
Of course we need to walk with a conscious mind towards our actions in order to avoid the passions and subsequent sins. However, how can we have a healthy mind and subsequently healthy spiritual mind if we analyze everything into the ground? God loves us and created us. That overwhelming fact should be balanced with the significance of our sin and Edenic condition. We are who we are. From the acceptance of our limitations comes a healthy place in which to live our lives. Indeed it is necessary to accept our condition in order to approach repentance. Yet, in our comparative lives (with other humans) we face all kinds of dysfunctional analyses. We see ourselves as stupid, unloved, inferior, and all of their opposites. One extreme seems to be as damning as the other. Should we just exit our social and existential analyses of ourselves and simply exist? Some seem to master this. Usually these are what has historically been considered "the peasant class." I'm wondering as Orthodox Christians if we should just reduce our analysis of the typical social class type feelings and focus on our passions. This would leave us to simply function without having to worry about the traditional influences on the popular-modern self-esteem. It's almost like we are being deceived into focusing on a dualistic worldview. On one hand we are Orthodox. On the other hand we are members of the West in all of its dysfunction. Take away the emotions of the latter and suddenly self-esteem doesn't matter. Dealing with our spiritual lives allows us to focus on the true issues of pride, faithlessness, and deference to the opinions of others.
I don't know. I'm, again, thinking out loud here. I know I overanalyze everything.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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“The most alarming thing in your last account of the patient is that he is making none of those confident resolutions which marked his original conversion. No more lavish promises of perpetual virtue, I gather; not even the expectation of an endowment of 'grace' for life, but only a hope for the daily and hourly pittance to meet the daily and hourly temptation! This is very bad.

I see only one thing to do at the moment. Your patient has become humble; have you drawn his attention to the fact? All virtues are less formidable to us once the man is aware that he has them, but this is specially true of humility. Catch him at the moment when he is really poor in spirit and smuggle into his mind the gratifying reflection, 'By jove! I'm being humble', and almost immediately pride--pride at his own humility--will appear. If he awakes to the danger and tries to smother this new form of pride, make him proud of his attempt--and so on, through as many stages as you please. But don't try this too long, for fear you awake his sense of humour and porportion, in which case he will merely laugh at you and go to bed.”
CS Lewis, “The Screwtape Letters”

This is worth repeating.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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I struggled for a long time with this. The Canon of Repentance hardly goes easy on us when we read it. I believe it even says in the Desert Fathers that we ought not love ourselves but should instead direct our love to God. (Someone who knows it better than I do might be able to cite where it says this.) However, we can't forget that we are created in the image and likeness of the Lord, an honor that God bestowed upon us humans and no one else. We also must not forget that God is hardly just, for His mercy far outweighs His justice, and He is quick to have mercy on us, which is a function of the love He has for us.

Self-esteem just seems like a poor word for what Orthodox are supposed to feel. To hear secular sources describe it, it sounds like pride. But I feel we Orthodox are called to something better than secular self-esteem, and that is that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Doesn't that say a lot more about our worth than the self-congratulatory self-esteem that the secular world preaches?
 
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Hermit76

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I struggled for a long time with this. The Canon of Repentance hardly goes easy on us when we read it. I believe it even says in the Desert Fathers that we ought not love ourselves but should instead direct our love to God. (Someone who knows it better than I do might be able to cite where it says this.) However, we can't forget that we are created in the image and likeness of the Lord, an honor that God bestowed upon us humans and no one else. We also must not forget that God is hardly just, for His mercy far outweighs His justice, and He is quick to have mercy on us, which is a function of the love He has for us.

Self-esteem just seems like a poor word for what Orthodox are supposed to feel. To hear secular sources describe it, it sounds like pride. But I feel we Orthodox are called to something better than secular self-esteem, and that is that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Doesn't that say a lot more about our worth than the self-congratulatory self-esteem that the secular world preaches?
This is very good!
 
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SingularityOne

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Tips from the Monastery: Healthy Self-Deprecation

Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Esteem versus Self-Respect

Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Hatred

Self-esteem doesn’t exist. Self-respect does. Our confidence comes from Christ and being grounded in him. Our true love of self comes from loving Christ and striving towards the never-ending goal of humility, with repentance, in prayer. Recovering (and still recovering) from “low self respect” has been a journey. However, faith, humility, prayer, and thanksgiving for all things really are the “cures.” Christ is our “esteem,” not myself. So... it’s more like “Christ-esteem.” I would agree that “Christ-esteem” and “Christ-respect” (fear of God) is where our true “esteem” is.

Look into the book The Sunflower, by St. John of Tobolsk - Not on “self-esteem,” but it really reframed “confidence” for me.
 
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Hermit76

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Tips from the Monastery: Healthy Self-Deprecation

Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Esteem versus Self-Respect

Orthodoxy and Recovery: Self-Hatred

Self-esteem doesn’t exist. Self-respect does. Our confidence comes from Christ and being grounded in him. Our true love of self comes from loving Christ and striving towards the never-ending goal of humility, with repentance, in prayer. Recovering (and still recovering) from “low self respect” has been a journey. However, faith, humility, prayer, and thanksgiving for all things really are the “cures.” Christ is our “esteem,” not myself. So... it’s more like “Christ-esteem.” I would agree that “Christ-esteem” and “Christ-respect” (fear of God) is where our true “esteem” is.

Look into the book The Sunflower, by St. John of Tobolsk - Not on “self-esteem,” but it really reframed “confidence” for me.
The "Tips from the Monastery" was especially helpful
 
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zippy2006

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Yet, in our comparative lives (with other humans) we face all kinds of dysfunctional analyses. We see ourselves as stupid, unloved, inferior, and all of their opposites. One extreme seems to be as damning as the other. Should we just exit our social and existential analyses of ourselves and simply exist? Some seem to master this. Usually these are what has historically been considered "the peasant class."

I think that there will always need to be a kind of balance between two opposites, such as despair and pride. The evil thought of gluttony is a good example of this: it is something that requires moderation and balance. One extreme is as damning as the other, so we stay between them.

Here is Evagrius on the demon of dejection, which is very similar to despair and lack of self-esteem:

The symbol of this demon is the viper. When used in moderation for man's good, its poison is an antidote against that of other venomous creatures, but when taken in excess it kills whoever takes it. (Philokalia)​
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In Christianity I've noticed a theme in the teachings of Jesus on loving others as you would love yourself, not showing favoritism, not being a hypocrite.

Self esteem takes a route that begins with love others as you would love yourself - but it focuses mostly on just loving yourself - correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some of the epistles admonish this attitude?

I think there's a balance that has been lost in today's society, finding this is essential to a healthy outlook and a healthy expression of Trinitarian love.

Jesus said out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, so cleaning the cup on the inside is important. If we fill it up before it is cleaned, maybe that's what happened with the idea of self esteem?

Just some ideas that came to me while reading through the thread.

Thanks for the good read, God bless.
 
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