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Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by WordSword, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    So Jesus really meant that the sheep who became lost was really still saved but out of “fellowship”?

    Is that what your teaching, Freegrace?


    JLB
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    You simply fail to understand what "lost" means. You spiritualize everything to fit your unbiblical view.

    From JLB
    No reasonable person would come to this silly conclusion.

    I pointed out that "lost" can mean a number of things, and I gave an example, which you conveniently ignored, since it refutes your ideas.

    It is easy to see that "lost" simply means "not with the flock". Has nothing to do with sheep who are going to hell.

    Angels always rejoice when humans who need to repent do so.

    Sure. And nothing here about losing salvation.

    Have you stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no.

    I'm always amused by your false premise questions. Everyone in humanity needs to be saved.

    But you really do need to stop beating your wife.
     
  3. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I said this:
    "Salvation is guaranteed in Eph 1:13,14, John 5:24 and 10:28. "
    You have made it abundantly clear that you don't consider any of the verses above to be Scripture. You've trampled them all over, and rejected God's Word.

    Yes, that's what you are.

    Everyone who doesn't have a map or GPS and gets "off track", does need to be delivered or rescued in order to get back "on track".

    You see, or more probably you don't see, the word 'lost' can mean a number of things.

    If by 'lost' you mean unsaved and headed for hell, then, quite obviously they need to be saved from going to hell.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Go ahead and keep ignoring all the security verses, which you've been shown and rejected."
    The only reason you say this is because you've rejected:
    Eph 1:13,14,
    13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
    14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

    John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    You are a proven liar.

    Now, go ahead and prove that these 5 verses don't speak of eternal security, but something else.
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Glad you asked. The point of the lost sheep was repentance. Even believers need to repent of their sins.

    However, the point of the prodigal, who was described by the father as both "dead" and "lost" WAS fellowship.

    But you've made quite clear that the biblical teaching of fellowship isn't even in your vocabulary, so there's no point in having a discussion about it with you.
     
  6. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Another failed attempt to explain away the fact that those who are lost need salvation, with deceptive human reasoning.




    JLB
     
  7. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Where is the rest verse 28?

    Very deceptive quoting a scripture that begins with "and", but leaving off the word that connects the previous verse that describes those who will receive the promise of verse 28.


    My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


    The reason His sheep receive eternal life, is they hear and obey Him throughout their life which results in following Him.


    At the end of following Him, they receive eternal life.


    Are you trying to teach God's people they do not have to hear His voice and follow Him, but receive eternal life anyway?


    Is that what you are implying by leaving off part of verse 28 and not even quoting verse 27?


    Blessed are those who do His commandments,
    that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
    But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
    Revelation 22:14-15


    JLB
     
  8. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    No, you are teaching justification/salvation by faith AND WORKS. o_O

    In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

    Confession is an expression of faith, yet you turn it into a work for salvation. Does "believes unto righteousness" = not unto salvation? NO. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies his faith is accounted for righteousness. (Does "his faith is accounted for righteousness" equate to still lost?) NO. 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Believes unto righteousness = saved.

    I've heard people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can "believe unto righteousness" today, but are still lost until we confess Christ later, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

    Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

    1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to and verbally reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
     
  9. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    So I guess it's true, your teaching that the lost don't need to be saved. [Universal Reconciliation]


    What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


    • likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



    JLB
     
  10. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I'm teaching Justification by faith.


    Since you don't understand the principle of faith and how faith operates, it's all very foreign to you.


    Faith operates by obedience.


    Without obedience faith is lifeless and incomplete.


    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
    Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
    James 2:21-22

    The "work" here that Abraham did was to obey God, and offer his son Isaac on the altar.

    The act of obedience is what completes faith, so that it functions to produce the intended divine result.


    Example:


    And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22


    This woman had faith in her heart.

    • For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.


    However it wasn't until she acted and moved forward to touch His garment that her faith produced the intended divine result: Healing.


    This woman had worked for no telling how long to save up enough money to pay doctors, and all she received for all her work, was she grew worse.


    How easy it was to simple obey God, and walk forward to receive her healing by the obedience of faith.


    Likewise, how much "work is it to obey the Gospel, and confess Jesus as Lord.


    For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


    • with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



    Does it say believe unto salvation or confess unto salvation?



    But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



    JLB
     
  11. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth working together unto completed faith.


    Without obedience faith is lifeless and incomplete.


    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
    Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
    James 2:21-22

    The "work" here that Abraham did was to obey God, and offer his son Isaac on the altar.

    The act of obedience is what completes faith, so that it functions to produce the intended divine result.




    JLB
     
  12. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    PLUS WORKS.

    I understand just fine. It's you who does not understand that faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

    Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and produces obedience/works.

    If someone claims to have faith with no resulting evidential works (obedience) then such a person has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith (James 2:14).

    For the umpteenth time. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that "Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous." The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous." In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

    In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

    In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

    1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
    2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
    3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

    In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

    God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

    Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
    Example:

    So it is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony* ;)

    Of course she had faith (which made her well) and it was evidenced by touching the garment of Jesus.

    We read in Matthew 9 that this woman was healed of her bleeding because of her faith. What we don't read is she was saved by grace through touching His garment. You turn everything into works salvation.

    Yet man is saved through faith and not by obedience/works which follow.

    We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). For such a person the word of faith is in their mouth and in their heart TOGETHER. *That is where the confession comes in and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. *Yet you continue to miss that.

    I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #1168, but unfortunately the truth just continues to go right over your head. :(

    You read everything through the lens of works salvation. In regards to Romans 16:26, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. *Notice in Romans 1:5 that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith.

    Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works. In Romans 16:26, the AMP version says - leading them to obedience to the faith and the NIV says - obedience that comes from faith. So there is nothing here about salvation by faith + obedience/works. You need a new pair of bi-focals. o_O
     
  13. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Please stop making up lies about what I'm sharing here.


    I described from the scriptures what faith is, and how faith works.


    Faith works by obedience.


    Not the works of the law.
    Not good works.
    Not works that earn.


    Obedience to what God speaks to us, by which we receive faith.


    The Gospel command is repent.


    To obey the Gospel, means repent.


    Do you understand what repent means?




    JLB
     
  14. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was reading John 10:25-26 just before.

    25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

    JESUS SAID:
    "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep".

    Those who BELIEVE are of Jesus' sheep and will receive eternal live...

    Those who do NOT BELIEVE are NOT Jesus' sheep and will NOT receive eternal life.

    John reiterates this.

    1 John: 5:11-12
    11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

    The life is IN THE SON.
    If we have the Son................we have the life.
    If we do NOT have the Son....we do NOT have the life.

    How much clearer could it be?
    If we are members of the flock, we are saved.
    If we wander off, we are lost and not saved.

    Lost........not saved.
     
  15. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    The work of obedience in Genesis 22 is what completed his faith from Genesis 15, is which righteousness was accounted to Abraham.

    His believing was fulfilled, made complete, by the action of obedience to God's voice to offer His son Isaac on the altar.



    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23


    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26




    JLB
     
  16. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    Your idea of completed faith is salvation by faith + works. Faith that does not result in obedience demonstrates that it's lifeless and incomplete. At what point was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness? In Genesis 15:6 when he believed God or not until later, after he obeyed God by offering up Isaac on the altar? *Also see Romans 4:2-3. The intended divine result of "accounted as righteous" took place in Genesis 15:6 many years before obedience that took place in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
     
  17. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    I already explained this to you NUMEROUS times but you just DON'T GET IT. :(
     
  18. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

    Tell me then, what does it say -


    Believe unto salvation or with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?



    JLB
     
  19. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    You've explain nothing.


    You have tried to explain away the truth. That's all.


    For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

    Tell me then, what does it say -


    Believe unto salvation or with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?


    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26




    JLB
     
  20. mailmandan

    mailmandan New Member

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    I have thoroughly explained the truth to you numerous times, but unfortunately, you just don’t have eyes to see or ears to hear and there is a reason for that. :(
     
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