Seeking Reconciliation

MysticMonist

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Hello,

I’m a mystic and I’m really angry about evangelical Christianity’s exclusivity with salvation (Christ alone), rejection of contemplative or mystical or monastic traditions, and it’s claiming to speak for all of the very diverse Christian faith.

I’m tired of being angry though and it’s toxic to my own faith and growth. I feel that perhaps it’s a misunderstanding where evangelicals don’t understand or appreciate the depths of mysticism. I think I’m forgetting that these Christians are children of God, that my problem is with their beliefs not them as people, and that I do find great value in the scriptures of the New Testament. I hope even by praying for one another I can find some peace.
May God bless and keep us, may He may make His face shine upon and give us peace.
-MM
 
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JM

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Hello,

I’m a mystic and I’m really angry about evangelical Christianity’s exclusivity with salvation (Christ alone), rejection of contemplative or mystical or monastic traditions, and it’s claiming to speak for all of the very diverse Christian faith.

I’m tired of being angry though and it’s toxic to my own faith and growth. I feel that perhaps it’s a misunderstanding where evangelicals don’t understand or appreciate the depths of mysticism. I think I’m forgetting that these Christians are children of God, that my problem is with their beliefs not them as people, and that I do find great value in the scriptures of the New Testament. I hope even by praying for one another I can find some peace.
May God bless and keep us, may He may make His face shine upon and give us peace.
-MM

There is mysticism which is guided by tradition and experiential or experimental communion with God that is tested by scripture. We find areas of agreement in the explanations by both groups but differences exist.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

by George Muller below;

While I was staying at Nailsworth, it pleased the Lord to teach me a truth, irrespective of human instrumentality, as far as I know, the benefit of which I have not lost, though now…more than forty years have since passed away.

The point is this: I saw more clearly than ever, that the first great and primary business to which I ought to attend every day was, to have my soul happy in the Lord. The first thing to be concerned about was not, how much I might serve the Lord, how I might glorify the Lord; but how I might get my soul into a happy state, and how my inner man might be nourished. For I might seek to set the truth before the unconverted, I might seek to benefit believers, I might seek to relieve the distressed, I might in other ways seek to behave myself as it becomes a child of God in this world; and yet, not being happy in the Lord, and not being nourished and strengthened in my inner man day by day, all this might not be attended to in a right spirit.

Before this time my practice had been, at least for ten years previously, as an habitual thing, to give myself to prayer, after having dressed in the morning. Now I saw, that the most important thing I had to do was to give myself to the reading of the Word of God and to meditation on it, that thus my heart might be comforted, encouraged, warned, reproved, instructed; and that thus, whilst meditating, my heart might be brought into experimental, communion with the Lord.

I began therefore, to meditate on the New Testament, from the beginning, early in the morning. The first thing I did, after having asked in a few words the Lord’s blessing upon His precious Word, was to begin to meditate on the Word of God; searching, as it were, into every verse, to get blessing out of it; not for the sake of the public ministry of the Word; not for the sake or preaching on what I had meditated upon; but for the sake of obtaining food for my own soul. The result I have found to be almost invariably this, that after a very few minutes my soul has been led to confession, or to thanksgiving, or to intercession, or to supplication; so that though I did not, as it were, give myself to prayer, but to meditation,yet it turned almost immediately more or less into prayer.

When thus I have been for awhile making confession, or intercession, or supplication, or have given thanks, I go on to the next words or verse, turning all, as I go on, into prayer for myself or others, as the Word may lead to it; but still continually keeping before me, that food for my own soul is the object of my meditation. The result of this is, that there is always a good deal of confession, thanksgiving, supplication, or intercession mingled with my meditation, and that my inner man almost invariably is even sensibly nourished and strengthened and that by breakfast time, with rare exceptions, I am in a peaceful if not happy state of heart. Thus also the Lord is pleased to communicate unto me that which, very soon after, I have found to become food for other believers, though it was not for the sake of the public ministry of the Word that I gave myself to meditation, but for the profit of my own inner man.

The difference between my former practice and my present one is this. Formerly, when I rose, I began to pray as soon as possible, and generally spent all my time till breakfast in prayer, or almost all the time. At all events I almost invariably began with prayer.… But what was the result? I often spent a quarter of an hour, or half an hour, or even an hour on my knees, before being conscious to myself of having derived comfort, encouragement, humbling of soul, etc.; and often after having suffered much from wandering of mind for the first ten minutes, or a quarter of an hour, or even half an hour, I only then began really to pray.

I scarcely ever suffer now in this way. For my heart being nourished by the truth, being brought into experimental fellowship with God, I speak to my Father, and to my Friend (vile though I am, and unworthy of it!) about the things that He has brought before me in His precious Word. It often now astonished me that I did not sooner see this. In no book did I ever read about it. No public ministry ever brought the matter before me. No private intercourse with a brother stirred me up to this matter. And yet now, since God has taught me this point, it is as plain to me as anything, that the first thing the child of God has to do morning by morning is to obtain food for his inner man.

As the outward man is not fit for work for any length of time, except we take food, and as this is one of the first things we do in the morning, so it should be with the inner man. We should take food for that, as every one must allow. Now what is the food for the inner man: not prayer, but the Word of God: and here again not the simple reading of the Word of God, so that it only passes through our minds, just as water runs through a pipe, but considering what we read, pondering over it, and applying it to our hearts.…

I dwell so particularly on this point because of the immense spiritual profit and refreshment I am conscious of having derived from it myself, and I affectionately and solemnly beseech all my fellow-believers to ponder this matter. By the blessing of God I ascribe to this mode the help and strength which I have had from God to pass in peace through deeper trials in various ways than I had ever had before; and after having now above forty years tried this way, I can most fully, in the fear of God, commend it. How different when the soul is refreshed and made happy early in the morning, from what is when, without spiritual preparation, the service, the trials and the temptations of the day come upon one!

Another example:

“All true religion has a beginning, and a beginning, too, marked, clear and distinct. That the entrance of divine light into the soul, the first communications of supernatural life, the first manifestations of an unknown God, the first buddings forth of a new nature, the first intercourse of man with his Maker; that all these hitherto unfelt, unthought of, uncared for, undesired transactions should take place in the soul, and the soul be ignorant of them, should know neither their time nor their place, is a contradiction.

The evidence of feeling is as strong, as distinct, as perceptible as the evidence of sight. I know by sight that this object is black and that white. I know as certainly by feeling that this substance is cold and that hot. I may not be able to tell why the one is hot and the other cold, but I know the fact that they are so. Thus a new-born soul may not be able to tell why it feels, nor whence those feelings arise; but it is as conscious that it does feel as that it exists. It suits well the empty profession of the day to talk about early piety, and convictions from childhood, and Sunday school religion, and baptismal regeneration, and infant lispings, and the dawnings of the youthful mind. “The privilege of pious parents, of family religion, of the domestic altar, of a gospel ministry, of obedience to ordinances, of a father’s prayers, of a mother’s instruction”-who has not heard these things brought forward again and again as the beginning of what is called Christian conversion and decided piety? Many of these things are well in their place, and not to be despised or neglected; but when they are held up as the almost necessary beginning of a work altogether heavenly and supernatural, they must be set aside.

Thousands have had these things who have perished in their sins; and thousands have not had them who have been saved with an everlasting salvation. A true beginning is a beginning felt. I will not say that we must be able to point out the moment, the hour, the day or the week, though the nearer we approach the precision of time, the nearer we approach to a satisfactory evidence. But the season, the time within certain limits, when new feelings, new emotions, new wants, new desires arose in the heart, can never be forgotten by one who has really experienced them. To smother over, to mystify, to smuggle up the beginning is to throw discredit on the whole. If the beginning be wrong, all is wrong. If there be no divine beginning, there can be no divine middle, and no divine end; and if the first step be false, every successive step will partake of the original error. If a man, therefore, who professes to be walking in the way never knew the door, and never found it a strait and narrow one, he has clambered over the wall, and is a thief and a robber. His sentence is already recorded. “Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness” Mt 22:13.” – J. C. Philpot
 
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MysticMonist

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JM,

Thanks for the lovely passage. I’m familiar with Muller and his story and faith are always inspiring. He’s a great writer on prayer. I should read more of his stuff at some point.

I’m glad I reached out to you. I can already see how my prejudices have been tripping me up. It would be wrong to think baptists, nondenominational and other mainline Protestants are “non-mystical”. Mysticism is just having or seeking direct experiences of God. Evangelicals are fond of talking about a “personal relationship with Jesus” or their “walk with the LORD.” They often have daily personal devotionals. I made a connection between this and Hitbodedut a Hassidic Jewish meditation where one speaks freely and openly with God as if He was right there. Ignatius has a simmilar practice in his famous Exercises. People are individuals but there’s no reason one of these denominations can’t be as mystical or more so than me.
Then there’s Pentecostals (like yourself) which I’ve not had much experience with nor read any of their writers. I do know that the focus there is on experience of the Spirit and in the few services I’ve been to they have a vibrant and diverse expression of this mystical encounter.

So maybe this is the root of my issue. Christians value their styles of prayer and mystical expression, but are critical or deny other expressions even well established and solidly monotheistic expressions. Sufis and Kabbalah are taboo subjects. How can your prayers be okay and mine sorcery or something else dangerous if we pray to the same LORD? How can I go to hell because I reject Pauline Christianity when I seek God’s presence and participate in the forgiveness and grace only He can grant. It’s not yours to give out. God is our common Lord, not our doctrines or biblical interpretations. I feel that being saying salvation is only found in a narrow understanding of who Jesus is, you are demeaning non-Christians worth as human beings and denying their relationship with God.
 
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MysticMonist

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Is God only a God of the trinitarians?
Obviously He creates and loves us all, but are trinitarians the only ones he really cares about? Does He take no delight in a Muslim’s prayers to Him? Does He care that Buddhist seek His Truth by renouncing their own pride and desires?

We know that God accepts only prayers and offers given in humility and righteousness. Does He also require theological accuracy? If so, He hears very few prayers indeed.
 
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MysticMonist

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God is God of all and to know Him is to know Him in Trinity.
What about people who know him but not as a trinity? Are they mistaken about just the trinity part? (there is no God but God of Islam or the The Lord is your God, the Lord is One of Judaism). Or are they mistaken and just worshiping an idol? Surely the Jews aren’t idolaters. Technically I worship the Jewish God, since I’m a noahide.
I think Christians are the idolators and that your idolatry is theology. Perhaps Jesus is the only Son of God, but why should our intellectual understanding of Christology define our relationship with God. That’s idolatry.
 
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nChrist

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John 14:6-7 ESV Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
 
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Soyeong

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Is God only a God of the trinitarians?
Obviously He creates and loves us all, but are trinitarians the only ones he really cares about? Does He take no delight in a Muslim’s prayers to Him? Does He care that Buddhist seek His Truth by renouncing their own pride and desires?

We know that God accepts only prayers and offers given in humility and righteousness. Does He also require theological accuracy? If so, He hears very few prayers indeed.

Hello,

Nabeel Qureshi was a former Muslim who gave up everything to become a follower of Christ, where his family and friends cut ties with him, and many other Muslims who are contemplating whether Christianity is true have face similar ostracization, where they have been persecuted and even killed for becoming a Christian, so how can you say that these people gave up everything in order to follow the same God? I recently started going through his book No God but One and so far I would highly recommend because he compares and contrasts Christian and Muslim beliefs and explains why the difference between a trinity and a monad are significant.
 
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JM

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What about people who know him but not as a trinity? Are they mistaken about just the trinity part?

The universal faith, the Christian faith, is Trinitarian. That would mean if you deny the Trinity you do not know God and are mistaken. God is revealed as a Trinity in scripture and therefore, any theological conclusions not drawn from God's revelation of Himself to us, would be mistaken.

(there is no God but God of Islam or the The Lord is your God, the Lord is One of Judaism). Or are they mistaken and just worshiping an idol? Surely the Jews aren’t idolaters. Technically I worship the Jewish God, since I’m a noahide.

A lot going on there... The Jews worship in types and shadows, they deny Christ so yes, they are committing idolatry. Are you denying Jesus Christ? Are you appealing to the old covenant of works which, "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away"? and that during the time of Paul?

I think Christians are the idolators and that your idolatry is theology.

Than why seek to reconciliation with false believers, teachers and idolaters?

Perhaps Jesus is the only Son of God, but why should our intellectual understanding of Christology define our relationship with God. That’s idolatry.

Why should your lack of intellectualism define your relationship with God? Isn't that idolatry?

jm
 
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MysticMonist

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God is revealed as a Trinity in scripture and therefore, any theological conclusions not drawn from God's revelation of Himself to us, would be mistaken.
jm

That’s helpful. So you believe that God is ONLY revealed in the scriptures of the cannoncal New Testament and the Old Testament (as interpreted by the New)?
I could see how you say that God’s presence is only found in this special and particular revelation. Everyone else is in complete darkness?

How is that consistent with a good and just God?

I assume you believe in free will (I do not) How do you make a free choice without full information and with many actively trying to mislead and deceive you? You are eternally responsible for this choice according to your position.

I am anti-intellectual, in so far as I believe reason alone can not see Truth. It requires illumination. Mere belief is nothing without the Light of God and the following of His Will.

I’ll contrast the key issue of our positions. I’m a non-trinitarians, I reject free will, I’m a universalist, I like Platonism and so on. But I acknowledge these are opinions (in a platonic sense, neither certainly true nor certainly false). I don’t pretend they are knowledge. I don’t believe anyone is lesser of neccesarily wrong for believing the opposite.
 
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JM

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That’s helpful. So you believe that God is ONLY revealed in the scriptures of the cannoncal New Testament and the Old Testament (as interpreted by the New)?

No, but the fullness of God's revelation is in Christ Jesus and found in the Bible. The primary means by which God calls His people is through the preaching of the word, the apostolic message, contain in scripture.

I could see how you say that God’s presence is only found in this special and particular revelation. Everyone else is in complete darkness?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Yes, we must know God through Jesus Christ and act by faith in Jesus Christ.

How is that consistent with a good and just God?

God owes us nothing and we are sinners by nature and choice. It is entirely consistent that a just and holy God would punish sinners for their sin and lack of faith.

I assume you believe in free will (I do not)

No, I do not.

How do you make a free choice without full information and with many actively trying to mislead and deceive you? You are eternally responsible for this choice according to your position.

Sinners, due to our nature, choose sin.

I am anti-intellectual, in so far as I believe reason alone can not see Truth. It requires illumination. Mere belief is nothing without the Light of God and the following of His Will.

I agree with you, that reason alone cannot assent to the Gospel, that saving faith is an evangelical grace given by God.

jm
 
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MysticMonist

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What about revelation directly thru the cosmic Christ, the Logos, in the present?

Because that’s God.

Could that possibly be sufficient for salvation?
I’m asking something that sort of can’t be answered. Of course God alone saves, not our opinions of who does (I think you’d agree there). Especially in the case of individuals.
Like you don’t believe if you can tell me if I’m saved or not, correct?
 
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MysticMonist

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Hello,

Nabeel Qureshi was a former Muslim who gave up everything to become a follower of Christ, where his family and friends cut ties with him, and many other Muslims who are contemplating whether Christianity is true have face similar ostracization, where they have been persecuted and even killed for becoming a Christian, so how can you say that these people gave up everything in order to follow the same God? I recently started going through his book No God but One and so far I would highly recommend because he compares and contrasts Christian and Muslim beliefs and explains why the difference between a trinity and a monad are significant.


Thanks, I’ll have to check it out. I’m very interested in Islam and yes I suspect I do lean much more towards a Muslim view on most things. Baha’is are very cool too.

Here’s an amazing quote from the Quran that I read last night that sums up exactly what it is to be a mystic. In the passage Satan is talking to God after the fall.

39:15:He said, ‘My Lord! Since You have condemned me as astray (and erring), I will surely make (evil of straying from the straight path) fair-seeming to them (as long as they stay) on the earth; I shall seduce them all,
40:15:‘Except your (sincere) servants from among them; (Your) chosen and purified ones, (whom I shall not be able to seduce).’
41:15 :(Lord) said, ‘The path (that My sincere servants follow) leads straight to Me.
Surrah 15:39-41
 
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Simon_Templar

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The exclusivity of Christ is not an evangelical or protestant idea.

Traditional historic Christianity going back to the beginning has strong mystic traditions, but it always insists upon the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation.

Truth, by it's very nature, is exclusive.

As a side note, historic pre-Christian Judaism did commonly believe in something similar to the Trinity. This is because the idea is very strongly pointed to in the Old Testament scriptures. If you want to get more info on this I would recommend Michael Heiser. You can find lots of videos of him on youtube, and he has websites with his stuff as well. Specifically this topic would be under "two powers in heaven" or jewish binitarianism.
 
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