Seeking justice in our financial decisions

[mcarans]

I write about how a question about betting on market changes due to COVID-19 reminded me of my reasons for changing career from investment banking, including the chasing of profits from others misery like terrorist attacks. I talk about how the Old and New Testaments consistently call for seeking justice and how we should avoid profiting from injustice in our own financial affairs. What are your thoughts on this?

https://medium.com/cruciformity/seeking-justice-in-our-financial-decisions-ac3fd82e3867

Excerpt:
"A question on a forum about whether to buy a call option to take advantage of market changes from the spread of the Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) reminded me of the so 7/7 bombings in London on 7 July 2005...
The effect of a terrorist attack is to create a lot of volatility in the markets and traders thrive on it to generate significant returns for banks and hedge funds...
...could not see how many aspects of investment banking are consistent with the persistent message in the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments to seek justice - you can hardly seek justice while making money from injustice.
Ultimately our financial affairs should not be structured solely to maximise personal profit because it is highly unlikely that this will be possible without benefiting from injustice."

 

[createdtoworship]

I write about how a question about betting on market changes due to COVID-19 reminded me of my reasons for changing career from investment banking, including the chasing of profits from others misery like terrorist attacks. I talk about how the Old and New Testaments consistently call for seeking justice and how we should avoid profiting from injustice in our own financial affairs. What are your thoughts on this?

https://medium.com/cruciformity/seeking-justice-in-our-financial-decisions-ac3fd82e3867

Excerpt:
"A question on a forum about whether to buy a call option to take advantage of market changes from the spread of the Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) reminded me of the so 7/7 bombings in London on 7 July 2005...
The effect of a terrorist attack is to create a lot of volatility in the markets and traders thrive on it to generate significant returns for banks and hedge funds...
...could not see how many aspects of investment banking are consistent with the persistent message in the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments to seek justice - you can hardly seek justice while making money from injustice.
Ultimately our financial affairs should not be structured solely to maximise personal profit because it is highly unlikely that this will be possible without benefiting from injustice."

while I normally don't invest in immoral stocks such as inappropriate content stocks or cannibus stocks, I normally don't see a moral problem making money from a recession. IF you can make money on it, go ahead and do it. As long as you are making money off the natural flow of the markets and not pump and dumping or creating a sell off for example, to profit from panic.

 

[mcarans]

while I normally don't invest in immoral stocks such as inappropriate content stocks or cannibus stocks, I normally don't see a moral problem making money from a recession. IF you can make money on it, go ahead and do it. As long as you are making money off the natural flow of the markets and not pump and dumping or creating a sell off for example, to profit from panic.

How about tobacco and gambling stocks?

 

[Aussie Pete]

I write about how a question about betting on market changes due to COVID-19 reminded me of my reasons for changing career from investment banking, including the chasing of profits from others misery like terrorist attacks. I talk about how the Old and New Testaments consistently call for seeking justice and how we should avoid profiting from injustice in our own financial affairs. What are your thoughts on this?

https://medium.com/cruciformity/seeking-justice-in-our-financial-decisions-ac3fd82e3867

Excerpt:
"A question on a forum about whether to buy a call option to take advantage of market changes from the spread of the Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) reminded me of the so 7/7 bombings in London on 7 July 2005...
The effect of a terrorist attack is to create a lot of volatility in the markets and traders thrive on it to generate significant returns for banks and hedge funds...
...could not see how many aspects of investment banking are consistent with the persistent message in the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments to seek justice - you can hardly seek justice while making money from injustice.
Ultimately our financial affairs should not be structured solely to maximise personal profit because it is highly unlikely that this will be possible without benefiting from injustice."

Agreed with a caveat. God wants to remove money from the world system and bring into the kingdom God. People who invest in the share market are not likely to be the poor and oppressed. The Lord led me to invest in shares about four years ago. Proceeds from the sale of shares (at a considerable profit) go to the work of the kingdom. Yes, it is profit for no effort, which is something that bothers me. However, the Lord told me which shares to invest in and it's proven to be way better than bank interest.

 

[createdtoworship]

How about tobacco and gambling stocks?

up to you, if you have a tobacco and gambling problem and wish to boycott the stock, go for it. You would be hard pressed to find a moral company. But stocks that violate pharmikea verses such as marijuana, are worse than tobacco or gambling, studies have proven that people who use marijuana at a young age it makes your motor skills so bad you get less scores on your drivers tests:
Even when sober, frequent marijuana users are dangerous drivers, report finds

also marijuana had many peer reviews of causing skitsophrenia in autistic children. Look it up, marijuana is bad news all the way around. Tobacco, is bad too, so is alcohol but I think they are lesser due to the fact they harm you physically less so. But to God every sin is bad. But in order to be free from sinners, one would need to get out of the world.

"I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world." ! corinthians 5:9-10

 

[createdtoworship]

Agreed with a caveat. God wants to remove money from the world system and bring into the kingdom God. People who invest in the share market are not likely to be the poor and oppressed. The Lord led me to invest in shares about four years ago. Proceeds from the sale of shares (at a considerable profit) go to the work of the kingdom. Yes, it is profit for no effort, which is something that bothers me. However, the Lord told me which shares to invest in and it's proven to be way better than bank interest.

we all work for companies that are not christian, we are making money off worldly companies. So in order to avoid them we would need to leave the world (1 corinthians 5:10), but that does not mean we shouldn't boycott obviously wicked companies. Marijuana is one such toxic company, alcohol stocks, possibly gambling and tobacco stocks (I typically only invest in indices), which included all worldly stocks, so I guess indices would be out for you guys as well. Spy, Spx, all that you couldn't morally trade due to not knowing if one of the sp500 companies were morally sound (according to some people posting here). So you can see the dilemma being overtly ritualistic with it, or overtly legalistic with it. But companies that we already KNOW are immoral, yes we should boycott them. I boycott paypal, pepsi, target among a few. And I could post why if you want. Pepsi uses aborted fetal stem cells in flavoring.

 

[timewerx]

I talk about how the Old and New Testaments consistently call for seeking justice and how we should avoid profiting from injustice in our own financial affairs. What are your thoughts on this?

You might be right here.

The way I understand about investment banking, you are moving investment from the weak (and/or those badly affected by events) into the strong.

That's exactly the opposite of how divine justice works!

Serving the strong is NOT the way of the Lord. It's always been serving the weak and poor!

 

[timewerx]

Proceeds from the sale of shares (at a considerable profit) go to the work of the kingdom.

The end justifies the means?

Maybe, but you'll have to give more (Don't save it up, don't use it to give yourself a good life):

Luke 16:9
And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

The Lord is not literally commanding us to earn money by wicked means....Rather, it is understood by the author of that verse that all money is made through unrighteousness.

Make friends, means use money to help people....Until it fails, means until it is gone.. Extreme generosity. It all falls into place... as the followers of Christ are told not to look for a good, pleasant, and comfortable life here on Earth but use their time and resources instead to seek Him, and seek His lost sheep (to help them).

 

[timewerx]

we all work for companies that are not christian, we are making money off worldly companies.

That's right. Even the Bible says (in context) money comes from unrighteousness.

In the Bible, the only good uses of money is for paying taxes (haha!) and for helping our fellow Christians in need.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The end justifies the means?

Maybe, but you'll have to give more (Don't save it up, don't use it to give yourself a good life):

Luke 16:9
And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

The Lord is not literally commanding us to earn money by wicked means....Rather, it is understood by the author of that verse that all money is made through unrighteousness.

Make friends, means use money to help people....Until it fails, means until it is gone.. Extreme generosity. It all falls into place... as the followers of Christ are told not to look for a good, pleasant, and comfortable life here on Earth but use their time and resources instead to seek Him, and seek His lost sheep (to help them).

Like I said, it funds kingdom work. That's all of it.

 

[Aussie Pete]

we all work for companies that are not christian, we are making money off worldly companies. So in order to avoid them we would need to leave the world (1 corinthians 5:10), but that does not mean we shouldn't boycott obviously wicked companies. Marijuana is one such toxic company, alcohol stocks, possibly gambling and tobacco stocks (I typically only invest in indices), which included all worldly stocks, so I guess indices would be out for you guys as well. Spy, Spx, all that you couldn't morally trade due to not knowing if one of the sp500 companies were morally sound (according to some people posting here). So you can see the dilemma being overtly ritualistic with it, or overtly legalistic with it. But companies that we already KNOW are immoral, yes we should boycott them. I boycott paypal, pepsi, target among a few. And I could post why if you want. Pepsi uses aborted fetal stem cells in flavoring.

As in all things, we should be led by the Lord. The shares that I bought on advice from Motley Fool tanked 25% and is subject to a class action as a result. Shares the Lord told me to buy have done well. One is about 6 times what I paid. Some shares are tanking with the coronavirus scare. I'm still way out in front.

 

[Thomas White]

Agreed with a caveat. God wants to remove money from the world system and bring into the kingdom God. People who invest in the share market are not likely to be the poor and oppressed. The Lord led me to invest in shares about four years ago. Proceeds from the sale of shares (at a considerable profit) go to the work of the kingdom. Yes, it is profit for no effort, which is something that bothers me. However, the Lord told me which shares to invest in and it's proven to be way better than bank interest.

It's not profit for no effort. You earned the money you invested. You researched your investment. You took the risk. That's a great deal of effort. Don't downplay your success.

 

[timewerx]

As in all things, we should be led by the Lord.

I got interested in the stock market last year. But the Lord showed me it's moving the funds away from the weak companies.

Lord told me to use my talents elsewhere. I'm good with computational algorithms and pattern analysis so the talent would work very well with stocks analysis.

But I guess the Lord has concern and care for these weak companies too.

 

[createdtoworship]

I got interested in the stock market last year. But the Lord showed me it's moving the funds away from the weak companies.

Lord told me to use my talents elsewhere. I'm good with computational algorithms and pattern analysis so the talent would work very well with stocks analysis.

But I guess the Lord has concern and care for these weak companies too.

thats really interesting. If you simply did an algorithm that incorporated commodity channel index, I have studied various indicators for the markets for five years. CCI is probably the most reactive indicator I know of. Standard period is 14 for short term. But one can put three time settings on one screen and see short, medium and long term of a fund. Short term is 14 period, medium term is 31 period, long term I think is 90, I believe. Try it out, you may like the results. Also I found this ratio pretty interesting...

put/call ratio

 

[timewerx]

thats really interesting. If you simply did an algorithm that incorporated commodity channel index, I have studied various indicators for the markets for five years. CCI is probably the most reactive indicator I know of. Standard period is 14 for short term. But one can put three time settings on one screen and see short, medium and long term of a fund. Short term is 14 period, medium term is 31 period, long term I think is 90, I believe. Try it out, you may like the results. Also I found this ratio pretty interesting...

put/call ratio

You didn't seem to notice or even care what the Lord told me about the stock market.

You can see what the love money does to people's minds.

 

[createdtoworship]

You didn't seem to notice or even care what the Lord told me about the stock market.

You can see what the love money does to people's minds.

your right. using money is not evil, stocks are not evil. Legalism is evil. Unsubscribing.

if you wish to keep debating this topic, meet me here:
Theology behind prepping and even investment in general

 

[timewerx]

your right. using money is not evil, stocks are not evil. Legalism is evil. Unsubscribing.

if you wish to keep debating this topic, meet me here:
Theology behind prepping and even investment in general

Doing my duty as a Christian is not legalism

Ephesians 5:11
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

 

[timewerx]

Proceeds from the sale of shares (at a considerable profit) go to the work of the kingdom. Yes, it is profit for no effort, which is something that bothers me.

Perhaps there is a good reason to be bothered.

I take back what I said earlier about the "the end justifies the means". I think stocks investment is an instance where you might be doing far more harm than good.

The fundamental concept behind stocks investment is you're moving money from the low profit potential companies (usually the smaller, weak ones, or those who are suffering from setbacks / misfortunes) to companies with high profit potential, usually bigger companies.

You'd be making a bad situation go to worse for the companies already in trouble. It's probably convenient to dismiss none of these companies are poor anyhow.... But they also maintain workers who could lose their jobs and it's not that easy for many to look for another job that pays the same salary. There's even instances of CEO's committing suicides over problems like these.

And that's not the worse that could happen.

You're taking money from the weak and giving it to the strong - it increases wealth inequality.

A huge wealth inequality is a major problem in the world. Organized crime and even terrorism thrives in these conditions. It gives you plenty of financially desperate people willing to take risky jobs or accept bribes (or become victims in human trafficking) for criminal syndicates while you have more filthy rich people to buy their illegal services.

This Is Why Global Income Inequality Is a Real National-Security Threat
How big is income inequality as a determinant of crime rates?

It seems you'll be (directly or indirectly) causing more evil / harm in stock market gambling even if you donate all the profits to Godly work.

I gave a detailed and probably complicated explanation..........

But if you want simple, let's hear it from the Bible instead:

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.

 

[timewerx]

What are your thoughts on this?

https://medium.com/cruciformity/seeking-justice-in-our-financial-decisions-ac3fd82e3867

After much further thoughts, you are correct. My "like / dislike" bar has been disabled, otherwise, I have given you a winning mark.

I'm a data analyst and appreciate working with statistics and one huge problem with stocks investment is that it contributes to increasing wealth gap as you are moving funds from weak to strong ones.

It can also transform a bad situation for a company into worse. It may lead to people losing jobs and further worsening income inequality.

Statistics doesn't look favorably to high income inequality. Statistics strongly correlates it with Government Corruption and organized crime. The situations leads to more financially desperate people willing to risk working or accept bribes for organized crime and sometimes become victims themselves (in human trafficking) and gives organized crime more filthy rich clients that can afford their very expensive services.

The way of the world leads to very high income inequality, corruption, and injustice.

It would probably be pointless to make money in stock market, even if you give all that money away to Godly work as you might still end up doing more harm and evil (directly or indirectly) than good!

 

[Aussie Pete]

Perhaps there is a good reason to be bothered.

I take back what I said earlier about the "the end justifies the means". I think stocks investment is an instance where you might be doing far more harm than good.

The fundamental concept behind stocks investment is you're moving money from the low profit potential companies (usually the smaller, weak ones, or those who are suffering from setbacks / misfortunes) to companies with high profit potential, usually bigger companies.

You'd be making a bad situation go to worse for the companies already in trouble. It's probably convenient to dismiss none of these companies are poor anyhow.... But they also maintain workers who could lose their jobs and it's not that easy for many to look for another job that pays the same salary. There's even instances of CEO's committing suicides over problems like these.

And that's not the worse that could happen.

You're taking money from the weak and giving it to the strong - it increases wealth inequality.

A huge wealth inequality is a major problem in the world. Organized crime and even terrorism thrives in these conditions. It gives you plenty of financially desperate people willing to take risky jobs or accept bribes (or become victims in human trafficking) for criminal syndicates while you have more filthy rich people to buy their illegal services.

This Is Why Global Income Inequality Is a Real National-Security Threat
How big is income inequality as a determinant of crime rates?

It seems you'll be (directly or indirectly) causing more evil / harm in stock market gambling even if you donate all the profits to Godly work.

I gave a detailed and probably complicated explanation..........

But if you want simple, let's hear it from the Bible instead:

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.

I don't gamble. Companies need money to function. Some of my shares are in start ups, including a medical company. Another is involved in space research. If I put my money in the bank, guess where most of it is invested. Yep, in businesses. A business can go to the stock market to raise money, in which case the risk on the shareholder, not the bank. I could have gone into trading high/low automatically on a system promoted by a number of share trading firms. Now that really is gambling and I said no. Without the stock market, a lot of businesses simply would not exist. The whole system is corrupt. You can't escape it unless you go live in a cave. No thanks. There is a difference between investing and gambling. Wealth inequality could be controlled by effective taxation measures. It is also the result of utter corruption. Often the offenders are the rulers of poverty stricken nations. God will hold everyone of them to account.