Seeking advice about the Greek word pistis

[BNR32FAN]

Hi I’m trying to get some help understanding the different ways the Greek word pistis is used in the Bible. According to strong’s definition it can have many different meanings. I’m wondering if the word faith in the Bible is relating to simply believing or is it related more towards fidelity and faithfulness? I’m also curious about the different usage of the word in the scriptures. I see that the word fidelity is also pistis. So I’m wondering how people distinguish the word pistis between faith (believing) and fidelity (faithfulness).

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

 

[Radagast]

Hi I’m trying to get some help understanding the different ways the Greek word pistis is used in the Bible. According to strong’s definition it can have many different meanings. I’m wondering if the word faith in the Bible is relating to simply believing or is it related more towards fidelity and faithfulness?

Entire books have been written about this issue. It's complex. You won't get good-quality advice on the Internet.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Hi I’m trying to get some help understanding the different ways the Greek word pistis is used in the Bible. According to strong’s definition it can have many different meanings. I’m wondering if the word faith in the Bible is relating to simply believing or is it related more towards fidelity and faithfulness? I’m also curious about the different usage of the word in the scriptures. I see that the word fidelity is also pistis. So I’m wondering how people distinguish the word pistis between faith (believing) and fidelity (faithfulness).

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

The answer is to be found in a round about way. Pistis, mistranslated as "belief" today, was understood to mean "loyalty" in the ancient near east (ANE) .

Most of the themes in the Old Testament have to do with the loyalty shown by a vassal towards a sovereign. So the former would benefit from serving, being faithful to, the suzerain. The Hebrew writers of the NT found a parallel to this model in the Patron Client Relationship
in the world influenced by the Roman Empire .

Theo Geek: The Patron-Client system and Hebrews 11:1

Hebrew writers often borrowed words from Greek to easily convey an idea found in Judaism. For example they used the word "kyrios" whenever the word "adonai", Lord, was to be used. Similarly they used the word pistis to convey the idea of the Hebrew word, ’āman, the faithful serving of God.

Of course the benefit of loyalty was to have eternal life, live a life of meaning, chayei olam. Judaism is the only faith where the benefits accrued both in this world and the world to come, olam haba. Eternal life is the life of substance, as opposed to chayei sha ah, the fleeting life, the life where all the fruit, gains, perish and rust.

The subject is vast, but there are many benefits in studying the smaller components of the topic.

 

[Radagast]

The answer is to be found in a round about way. Pistis, mistranslated as "belief" today, was understood to mean "loyalty" in the ancient near east (ANE) .

It's a Greek word. If you check a Greek lexicon, you will see that trust/faith/confidence was always the primary meaning. However, trustworthiness/honest/faithfulness was always a secondary meaning.

Most of the themes in the Old Testament have to do with the loyalty shown by a vassal towards a sovereign. So the former would benefit from serving, being faithful to, the suzerain. The Hebrew writers of the NT found a parallel to this model in the Patron Client Relationship

The New Testament was written in Greek.

Hebrew writers often borrowed words from Greek to easily convey an idea found in Judaism. For example they used the word "kyrios" whenever the word "adonai", Lord, was to be used.

And, of course, where YHWH was used.

Similarly they used the word pistis to convey the idea of the Hebrew word, ’āman, the faithful serving of God.

It's a huge mistake to translate a Greek word according to the Hebrew word you think the author intended.

... and that's why asking questions like this on the Internet isn't a good idea.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The answer is to be found in a round about way. Pistis, mistranslated as "belief" today, was understood to mean "loyalty" in the ancient near east (ANE) .

Most of the themes in the Old Testament have to do with the loyalty shown by a vassal towards a sovereign. So the former would benefit from serving, being faithful to, the suzerain. The Hebrew writers of the NT found a parallel to this model in the Patron Client Relationship
in the world influenced by the Roman Empire .

Theo Geek: The Patron-Client system and Hebrews 11:1

Hebrew writers often borrowed words from Greek to easily convey an idea found in Judaism. For example they used the word "kyrios" whenever the word "adonai", Lord, was to be used. Similarly they used the word pistis to convey the idea of the Hebrew word, ’āman, the faithful serving of God.

Of course the benefit of loyalty was to have eternal life, live a life of meaning, chayei olam. Judaism is the only faith where the benefits accrued both in this world and the world to come, olam haba. Eternal life is the life of substance, as opposed to chayei sha ah, the fleeting life, the life where all the fruit, gains, perish and rust.

The subject is vast, but there are many benefits in studying the smaller components of the topic.

Wow this is an amazing discovery to me. I find this information extremely useful as it was just yesterday that I was in a discussion about salvation and what is required. I’m under the impression that it is not merely believing that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior but that obedience is also necessary. Good works and refraining from sin is also required to a certain degree. People on the other side of the debate claim that one must only believe. They don’t have to do good works or refrain from sin in fact they can sin all they want as long as that person believes he will be saved. I quoted James 2, all the discussions about sinners that won’t inherit the kingdom of God, the parables of the sheep and goats, the fig tree that withered, the tree that was chopped down and burned for not producing fruit and many others and these people still refuse to accept it. I even went so far as to ask if satan himself were a man would he be saved and they continuously duck and dodge the question. I was completely baffled that they couldn’t understand after having read all those verses so I prayed for all of us that God would give us guidance and help us to understand His Word and then I learn the definition of the Greek word pistis and am now finding out that it doesn’t only mean to believe but also to be faithful and loyal. I don’t want to jump the gun here I believe I must research this further but I’m really starting to believe that God has shown me this evidence that seems to clear up a lot of confusion about the requirements for salvation. This idea of the word pistis seems to coincide very well with the scriptures that describe the necessity of obedience. I’ve had a huge hunger for the word of God and this opens up a huge buffet of learning I must do to get a better understanding. I’ve been very irritated by the modern translations of the Bible and their lack of accuracy. Like metanoia for example translated to repent. That is a horrible example of metanoia. Repent simply meaning to have remorse or regret. Another example is pecel translated to image when pecel is actually referring to a carved idol. Learning this changed my views on kneeling to the statues of the saints based on Leviticus 26:1. Before I read it as do not worship idols or make carved images and bow to them. I thought that prayers to the saints is fine but kneeling to the statues is a sin but now I can see that Leviticus is actually saying not to kneel to carved idols. Thanks for sharing that information. God bless you friend

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's a Greek word. If you check a Greek lexicon, you will see that trust/faith/confidence was always the primary meaning. However, trustworthiness/honest/faithfulness was always a secondary meaning.



The New Testament was written in Greek.



And, of course, where YHWH was used.



It's a huge mistake to translate a Greek word according to the Hebrew word you think the author intended.

... and that's why asking questions like this on the Internet isn't a good idea.

I believe asking on the internet is a great idea! Haven’t you ever heard if it’s on the internet it must be true? Haha no seriously I think asking on the internet can be beneficial as long as I confirm what is said with reliable resources. Now finding reliable resources can be a task. What I need to learn is are there different usages of the word pistis that will indicate which definition would be correct? Perhaps context of the usage in the scriptures can give some indication. One thing is for certain is that I cannot simply jump to conclusions and in my excitement start replacing the word faith with faithfulness without finding some concrete evidence to support it. If this idea is truly God’s guidance I’m sure He will make it clear to me one way or the other. Thank you for your concern friend I will definitely keep your advice in mind. God bless

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's a Greek word. If you check a Greek lexicon, you will see that trust/faith/confidence was always the primary meaning. However, trustworthiness/honest/faithfulness was always a secondary meaning.



The New Testament was written in Greek.



And, of course, where YHWH was used.



It's a huge mistake to translate a Greek word according to the Hebrew word you think the author intended.

... and that's why asking questions like this on the Internet isn't a good idea.

I will keep in mind that it is possible that God has revealed this to me to perhaps show me that faithfulness is required for salvation or perhaps to show me that only believing is required. That is the big question.

 

[Radagast]

I believe asking on the internet is a great idea! Haven’t you ever heard if it’s on the internet it must be true? Haha no seriously I think asking on the internet can be beneficial as long as I confirm what is said with reliable resources.

The most reliable resources would be good books. As I said, many have been written.

For a good (and brief) Internet page, see "Faith" and "Faithfulness" by D.A. Carson

One thing is for certain is that I cannot simply jump to conclusions and in my excitement start replacing the word faith with faithfulness without finding some concrete evidence to support it.

In most cases, you should go with what the expert Bible translators have done. They are picking up on grammatical clues that you or I might miss.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The most reliable resources would be good books. As I said, many have been written.

For a good (and brief) Internet page, see "Faith" and "Faithfulness" by D.A. Carson



In most cases, you should go with what the expert Bible translators have done. They are picking up on grammatical clues that you or I might miss.

I believe books can be just as misleading as the internet. I would really like to discuss it with some Greek Orthodox and see if perhaps some of the early church father’s have any writings on this subject.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It's a Greek word. If you check a Greek lexicon, you will see that trust/faith/confidence was always the primary meaning. However, trustworthiness/honest/faithfulness was always a secondary meaning.



The New Testament was written in Greek.



And, of course, where YHWH was used.



It's a huge mistake to translate a Greek word according to the Hebrew word you think the author intended.

... and that's why asking questions like this on the Internet isn't a good idea.

The church was exploiting the belief that the merits earned by saints could be sold to sinners. In a knee jerk, Luther went postal trying to rule out merit could be earned. A huge rabbit trail, considering that no one in the ECF
taught works righteousness was a problem.

However, belief will never lead to being complete, entering rest. Following Jesus, unfriending the world, that definitely does the job.

Don't forget that was the crux, the tipping point, disloyalty to God, turning back to serving the world, which made Israel, Simon Magus, Ananias and Sapphira, all of us who never left serving the world, never gave up everything and never followed Christ ( you know who you are) disqualified.

 

[Radagast]

I believe books can be just as misleading as the internet.

They can be; but it's easier to recognise good books.

I hadn't realised that you wanted an Eastern Orthodox view; you should have asked in T.A.W.

 

[Radagast]

The church was exciting the belief that the merits earned by saints could be sold to sinners. In a knee jerk, Luther went postal trying to rule out merit could be earned. A huge rabbit trail, considering that no one ever taught works righteousness was ever a problem in the ECF.

However, belief will never lead to being complete, entering rest. Following Jesus, unfriending the world, that definitely does the job.

Don't forget that was the crux, the tipping point, what made israel, Simon Magus, Ananias and Sapphira, all those who never left serving the world, ( you know who you are) disqualified.

I'm afraid that none of that made sense to me. Apart from your description of Luther, which was (a) offensive, and (b) failed to recognise that Luther was simply following in the footsteps of Augustine and Paul.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They can be; but it's easier to recognise good books.

I hadn't realised that you wanted an Eastern Orthodox view; you should have asked in T.A.W.

I think because the Greek Orthodox have a distinct understanding of the early Greek that many others don’t understand makes them probably the best candidate to seek information from. I am hoping I can find some evidence in the ECF writings. The earlier the better so as to get an understanding closer resembling the original authors of the scriptures that is not lost or changed over time.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'm afraid that none of that made sense to me. Apart from your description of Luther, which was (a) offensive, and (b) failed to recognise that Luther was simply following in the footsteps of Augustine and Paul.

Sorry that was spell check messing with me.

As for Augustine and Paul, the views were INTERPRETATIONS of what they wrote:

Quote

Faith Alone (Sola Fide)?

This must not be understood in such a way as to say that a man who has received faith and continues to live is righteous, even though he leads a wicked life. (Questions 76.1; commenting on Romans 3:28; Bray, 105; Defferari, Vol. 70, 195)

Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,” have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. (A Treatise on Grace and Free Will; Chapters 18; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

[E]ven those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, . . . the apostle himself, after saying, “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;” saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them . . . “Not of works” is spoken of the works which you suppose have their origin in yourself alone; but you have to think of works for which God has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you. . . . grace is for grace, as if remuneration for righteousness; in order that it may be true, because it is true, that God “shall reward every man according to his works.” (A Treatise on Grace and Free Will; Chapter 20; NPNF 1, Vol. V)


Read more at St. Augustine Was CATHOLIC, Not Proto-Protestant!

 

[icxn]

I think because the Greek Orthodox have a distinct understanding of the early Greek that many others don’t understand makes them probably the best candidate to seek information from. I am hoping I can find some evidence in the ECF writings. The earlier the better so as to get an understanding closer resembling the original authors of the scriptures that is not lost or changed over time.

Knowledge of Greek is not enough to define faith and I'm saying this as a native Greek. Faith is a virtue and like all the virtues, it's an uncreated 'energy' of God. A ray of divine light that emanates from Him and illuminates and warms only those that are not clouded by passions (vices). This is the perfect faith that the apostle calls ‘the substance of things hoped for' (Heb 11:1). There’s also the introductory or natural faith 'that comes by hearing' (Rom 10:17) and observation that all of us have, though not all of us choose to accept or obey. This natural faith if properly cultivated by means of good works prepares one to receive the perfect faith.

Some relevant quotes:

There is a knowledge that precedes faith, and there is a knowledge born of faith. Knowledge that precedes faith is natural knowledge; and that which is born of faith is spiritual knowledge. What is natural knowledge? Knowledge is natural that discerns good from evil, and this is also called natural discernment, by which we know to discern good from evil naturally, without being taught. God has implanted this in rational nature, and with teaching it receives growth and assistance; there is no one who does not have it. - Spiritual Homilies of St. Isaac the Syrian

...there is one kind of faith, the dogmatic, involving an assent of the soul on some particular point...But there is a second kind of faith which is bestowed by Christ as a gift of grace...The faith then which is given of grace from the Spirit is not merely doctrinal, but also works things above man's power. - St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures: Lecture 5 nos. 10-11)​

This page has lots of quotes from Orthodox Church Fathers on the subject of faith. It’s a somewhat long list so take your time. I would also recommend this article.