Security in the church

[Ken Rank]

I would have to say a combination of the two. But isn't all persecution a combination of martyrdom and evil in the world? Personally I don't have any problem with "self defense" when it comes to the church body, which is why I couldn't care less if someone carries a weapon to church if they do so because it is their right. But when we "organize" ourselves for the sake of protection when God tells us He is our protection I think we crossed a line.

I will have to give some thought to "all persecution and combination of martyrdom and evil in the world." My initial reaction would be to say yes (which is generally why I sleep at least once on all important decisions ) but I am reminded that we do not fight flesh but rather spiritual forces.

The point I am trying to make is that God is much safer than any man or gun even from those we call brothers and sisters, for often times it is our spiritual family that does the most harm and no weapon will protect us from them but the word of the living God.

You're proving to be a wise individual. Though attacks on Christians (and Jews) worldwide are increasing, we are still far more likely to die of a heart attack caused by those we call "brother or sister" who let us down or hurt us.

I agree our trust should be in God. However, I also believe that faith comes by HEARING the word of God AND is dead without works... meaning... we hear and then we act upon what we hear. So, is there anything in the word of God that declares we have the right or ability to defend ourselves? If no, then we are not living in faith if we set up a security detail at the church, if yes we would be living in faith because the word would have declared a place for us to do this. Luke 22:36 is not talking about a bible because there were none at that time... you couldn't go and sell your coat and buy a Torah scroll. Exodus 22:2 also is geared around protection in a very real way. So, does the spirit of those words extend out to protecting our families while worship... or not?

 

[Ken Rank]

I would still not carry arms onto Holy Ground - as a Franciscan I am brother of Peace not a brother of violence of any kind. If it meant losing my life in Gods' service then so be it.

I certainly respect that and I too am a man of peace. I truly abhor anything less than pacifism but there is a reality that cannot be ignored. When the world around you is not pacifistic, how long can you remain one if you value life?

I truly wish more people were like you, Gordon, and I think the Millennial Kingdom (or heaven if that is where you see our next destination) will be full of pacifists. But as I just shared with razzelflabben, Luke 22:36 is not speaking of buying a bible because there were none at that time. One didn't sell their coat and go buy a Torah scroll. We also have Exodus 22:2 which deals with killing somebody who breaks into your home at night. Since Yeshua isn't telling them to buy a sword and attack anyone (that would be against his character attributes) then why the sword if not for defense? And does the spirit of the Exodus 22:2 verse extend to protecting those in our congregations.

Having asked that, please understanding brother that I am NOT trying to talk you into anything. I respect where you are and see no reason to try influence your path... it is a righteous path. But as one who abhors violence, and for the sake of discussion, how do you deal with those two verses?

Thanks.
Ken

 

[381465]

Must be a hot topic...2 open threads.

I've researched the topic of church security and analysis tends to indicate the most likely scenario is 1 assailant. That doesn't mean something else wouldn't happen.
We are more prepared for deescalating a disgruntled congregant, estranged spouse or mentally ill person.

I really don't like the reality that awareness and preparedness are part of church services, but...

 

[Ken Rank]

Must be a hot topic...2 open threads.

I've researched the topic of church security and analysis tends to indicate the most likely scenario is 1 assailant. That doesn't mean something else wouldn't happen.
We are more prepared for deescalating a disgruntled congregant, estranged spouse or mentally ill person.

I really don't like the reality that awareness and preparedness are part of church services, but...

Unless it was moved, I don't think the other thread was in a place where deeper discussion was allowed. Anyway, you're right, we are far more prone to an emotional outburst by a member that would have to be dealt with than a shooting... but... this is something to consider seeing the increase in these events.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I love the Coptic response and I see absolutely no need for weapons in church.

I don't mean to stir up any controversies, but isn't it somewhat telling that the debate over whether or not it's OK to bear arms in church is primarily found in America?

 

[Ken Rank]

I love the Coptic response and I see absolutely no need for weapons in church.

I don't mean to stir up any controversies, but isn't it somewhat telling that the debate over whether or not it's OK to bear arms in church is primarily found in America?

Not many have the rights we have here, that is part of it. And seeing the US is still a melting pot of the world, this is a bellwether place in terms of trends.

That said, let me ask you and I am only asking... I really don't care where you fall on this position. I love the Coptic response as well... perhaps you are not one who believes that if an armed man comes into your church that you should protect your spouse or child by shooting him. But... do you shield your child with your body to protect them and if yes... do you see this as taking away your child's right to become a martyr for Christ?

 

[razzelflabben]

I will have to give some thought to "all persecution and combination of martyrdom and evil in the world." My initial reaction would be to say yes (which is generally why I sleep at least once on all important decisions ) but I am reminded that we do not fight flesh but rather spiritual forces.

amen

You're proving to be a wise individual. Though attacks on Christians (and Jews) worldwide are increasing, we are still far more likely to die of a heart attack caused by those we call "brother or sister" who let us down or hurt us.

I agree our trust should be in God. However, I also believe that faith comes by HEARING the word of God AND is dead without works... meaning... we hear and then we act upon what we hear. So, is there anything in the word of God that declares we have the right or ability to defend ourselves?

I think that depends on how we define defend...Christ was fulfilling a prophecy when He allowed the soldiers to take Him, so that isn't really where we need to go to answer the question. One of the places I think we can go is the prophets. Many of them were afraid for their lives and so they took measures to protect themselves. To me that is a form of self defense. Nonetheless, when they were commanded by God they did not move from that stand. We can also look at David and Goliath, or Sampson, etc. It seems from the OT picture of God that we see, He is not opposed to cleansing the land and the people from those that wish to draw His people away from Him. If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever I am not sure that I can change that conclusion of God's heart. If it is a matter of allowing people to lead away believers to their death (spiritual) I think it is okay from our OT understanding of God (willing to have someone change my mind through scripture) That being said, I also would take a page from Amos where he says, "Woe unto you who desire the day of the Lord for it is darkness and not light." Meaning that if the intruder could be stopped in a non lethal manner, you would preserve his chance at finding Christ and becoming a brother.

At least that is how I see things currently. I want to take a moment to thank you for your questions, I have been needing some stimulating conversation to take my mind off some of the drama in our family right now and when I found one it got closed for flaming. Your questions are providing that stimulation and I am soooooo grateful for them. Thanks

If no, then we are not living in faith if we set up a security detail at the church, if yes we would be living in faith because the word would have declared a place for us to do this. Luke 22:36 is not talking about a bible because there were none at that time... you couldn't go and sell your coat and buy a Torah scroll. Exodus 22:2 also is geared around protection in a very real way. So, does the spirit of those words extend out to protecting our families while worship... or not?

My initial stand on this question is like above. The OT law no longer applies to us in that Christ filled it and gave us a new covenant law of Love. However, the OT law is still there for a purpose and should inform us.

I had an "argument" once with a dear friend. Our children were young at the time and she said to me that she didn't want someone watching her children that was not willing to kill someone trying to hurt them. My response was that I was not willing to kill them but I could risk my life to stop them. It seems to me that in God's economy the Spiritual is the thing we should be most concerned about. As such, how can we live with ourselves if we take a life that might have been rescued by the Love of the Living God? At the same time, the same is true of the non believer in our midst that an intruder might want to kill for being in our worship service. I guess what I am trying to get at (rambling helps me clarify in my own mind sometimes) I think it is both/and not either/or. Whereas we might be asked to protect someone, our goal should always be to preserve life when possible so that God is free to work.

Maybe that isn't answering what you are asking...if not, please try again, I really do enjoy the questions and the challenge and actually thrive on such so please don't be afraid to ask and challenge.

 

[Ken Rank]

The OT law no longer applies to us in that Christ filled it and gave us a new covenant law of Love. However, the OT law is still there for a purpose and should inform us.

I don't agree with you on this, but I am not sure it matters as much as some think. So, instead of wasting time trying to convince each other of which commandments may or may not apply today... let me throw this out to you for consideration. God said in the Exodus verse that if a man comes into your home and is a thief, it is night, and you kill him... no charges can be brought against you. Now... the Torah (God's law) was being used by Israel as its constitution or rule of law... and since that is not the case today (we live under secular rule, so it's a moot point no matter which side of the law debate one comes down on) then the "no charges" point is not relevant. But what about the spirit of the point itself? If somebody breaks into your home to steal or hurt a family member (child/spouse) do we allow it and count it as joy that we have faced such a trial... or do we defend our home knowing in the eyes of God this probably isn't considered a sin? Remember, God doesn't change... and if this action in Exodus 22:2 was not sin when Moses penned these words as God dictated them to him... then it can't be sin now without God changing, right?

 

[Daniel9v9]

Not many have the rights we have here, that is part of it. And seeing the US is still a melting pot of the world, this is a bellwether place in terms of trends.

That said, let me ask you and I am only asking... I really don't care where you fall on this position. I love the Coptic response as well... perhaps you are not one who believes that if an armed man comes into your church that you should protect your spouse or child by shooting him. But... do you shield your child with your body to protect them and if yes... do you see this as taking away your child's right to become a martyr for Christ?

I believe Christians may uphold order and peace through many different means; we may freely serve in the public domain and in the military, because the government is instituted by God, and we are to uphold the law. See Romans 3:31 & Romans 13:1 and take the example of Cornelius the Centurion.

However, when it comes to gathering in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to me, it is about putting on the attitude of trusting in God. Do we trust that God's will be done, or do we trust in our own abilities to defend ourselves? I think we can learn a lot from the apostles' attitude when being oppressed and persecuted in that prayer is our weapon - not the sword. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Matthew 26:52

But suppose someone sacrificed himself to save another - is this a sin on account of it stealing away their chance to become a martyr for Christ? I don't believe so, for if we lay our lives down for someone else, we are following in the footsteps of our Lord.

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't agree with you on this, but I am not sure it matters as much as some think. So, instead of wasting time trying to convince each other of which commandments may or may not apply today... let me throw this out to you for consideration. God said in the Exodus verse that if a man comes into your home and is a thief, it is night, and you kill him... no charges can be brought against you. Now... the Torah (God's law) was being used by Israel as its constitution or rule of law... and since that is not the case today (we live under secular rule, so it's a moot point no matter which side of the law debate one comes down on) then the "no charges" point is not relevant. But what about the spirit of the point itself? If somebody breaks into your home to steal or hurt a family member (child/spouse) do we allow it and count it as joy that we have faced such a trial... or do we defend our home knowing in the eyes of God this probably isn't considered a sin? Remember, God doesn't change... and if this action in Exodus 22:2 was not sin when Moses penned these words as God dictated them to him... then it can't be sin now without God changing, right?

First let me say that my intention is not to convince anyone of my way of thinking, only to be stimulated into thinking and discussing a deeper understanding of God.

Okay, to the question on the table. Quick backstory so you understand where I am coming from better. For the last 10ish years I have answered God's call in my life to study Biblical Love full time. As in 40 or more hours a week. I have cut back to 20-30 at the moment. Everything I say and believe is based on that study of what Love is.

that being said, Matthew 22:40 tells us that Love sums up all the law and prophets. How I see that is that where we are no longer under the law, the law informs us as to what Love is. (Hope that makes sense) If we were still under the law we would be bound to it which we are not because we are bound to God through Grace and belief. So....to apply this to the question. As I understand the "law" on the matter, Love dictates that our desire is that the intruder would come to the saving knowledge of God which he cannot do if he is dead and yet we are responsible for the young, the believers, the protection.

Point being it is the spirit of the law (my opinion) that informs us of what real Love is. the spirit of the law seems to be that we should not desire to kill anyone but if someone dies from trying to protect what God has given us is not the same as purposing to kill them.

 

[Ken Rank]

First let me say that my intention is not to convince anyone of my way of thinking, only to be stimulated into thinking and discussing a deeper understanding of God.

Okay, to the question on the table. Quick backstory so you understand where I am coming from better. For the last 10ish years I have answered God's call in my life to study Biblical Love full time. As in 40 or more hours a week. I have cut back to 20-30 at the moment. Everything I say and believe is based on that study of what Love is.

that being said, Matthew 22:40 tells us that Love sums up all the law and prophets. How I see that is that where we are no longer under the law, the law informs us as to what Love is. (Hope that makes sense) If we were still under the law we would be bound to it which we are not because we are bound to God through Grace and belief. So....to apply this to the question. As I understand the "law" on the matter, Love dictates that our desire is that the intruder would come to the saving knowledge of God which he cannot do if he is dead and yet we are responsible for the young, the believers, the protection.

Point being it is the spirit of the law (my opinion) that informs us of what real Love is. the spirit of the law seems to be that we should not desire to kill anyone but if someone dies from trying to protect what God has given us is not the same as purposing to kill them.

I would tend to agree. The bible makes a clear distinction between predetermining to go and take a life, and reacting to a situation in self defense. As far as the spirit of the law... would love to look over your notes sometime but I think you're half right... but this is really for another thread. The spirit of the law does indeed reveal the heart and love behind the letter... but it also reveals the intent behind the letter. For example... when Yeshua said that looking upon a woman in lust is you already committing adultery, then he is showing that the intent of the heart is where sin develops, it only becomes obvious in the fleshly act. But when we lust in the heart for another woman, we have already broken the command because it has already become real in our hearts. So likewise.... if I decide in my heart I want you dead and I hold you in such contempt... haven't I... in my heart... already killed you? I think walking in the spirit of the law is actually harder... but I think there is an end point that makes it a way of life....

Yeshua's message in Matthew 5 isn't him trying to make it even harder to walk out... he is showing us that no matter how hard we try to be righteous, in the end we have to have the changed heart, the law moved from stone to the heart as promised in Deuteronomy 30:1-6 and Ezekiel 11:19 (and others). But again... we can start a letter/spirit thread soon. Blessings.

 

[381465]

I believe Christians may uphold order and peace through many different means; we may freely serve in the public domain and in the military, because the government is instituted by God, and we are to uphold the law. See Romans 3:31 & Romans 13:1 and take the example of Cornelius the Centurion.

However, when it comes to gathering in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to me, it is about putting on the attitude of trusting in God. Do we trust that God's will be done, or do we trust in our own abilities to defend ourselves? I think we can learn a lot from the apostles' attitude when being oppressed and persecuted in that prayer is our weapon - not the sword. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Matthew 26:52

But suppose someone sacrificed himself to save another - is this a sin on account of it stealing away their chance to become a martyr for Christ? I don't believe so, for if we lay our lives down for someone else, we are following in the footsteps of our Lord.

I think that laying down one's self for someone else means putting them first and making their need more important than your own. Another's need may be them wanting to live.
I don't think this means never defending yourself or others. I'm getting the feeling that some take this as looking for an opportunity to die at the hands of evil.
I also know we are called to witness. While your sacrificial death without physical objection may be viewed as a witnessing tool, you have also ended your ability for future witnessing as a living person.

Anyway, different points of view. I really wish some didn't view inanimate objects as evil and didn't view the ownership of a firearm as "murder in their hearts".
Some here equal defense to murder or revenge. Not remotely true. Defense is stopping violence. Revenge would be me finding the evil doer after the fact and killing them.

I view opposing opinions on the subject of firearms in church as pro or con. Not right or wrong.

Perhaps I lack the conviction of those who disagree on the subject.

 

[Paidiske]

For three and a half years, I worked for a church where part of my duties was seeing to the safety of the people and security of the buildings. I did so unarmed. I knew that I could be physically assaulted (most of our team were, over time), I knew that in the event of a bomb threat my job was to get everyone else out and to be last out the door (and it was the sort of place that attracted the occasional bomb threat). I knew that my life - or at least physical health - was on the line.

So I am not speaking entirely hypothetically but out of lived experience.

For myself, personally, I would not ever take a weapon into a church. To me that is akin to blasphemy. I cannot worship God while holding in my hands an item designed to deface God's image in another human being. The threat of harm doesn't change that for me but in fact deepens that conviction. If I were to be killed by an attacker in church, I would view that as a sort of genuine martyrdom; an ultimate witness to a God of radical peace.

I have seen weapons in church - most notably for services commemorating military service - and it has never struck me as anything other than utterly inappropriate.

Now I have to add that I'm in Australia, and people just don't wander around in public with guns. It doesn't happen. So in a way you're asking about something that is culturally very foreign here and no doubt that colours my answer. But my answer is a flat "I am against any weapon in church at any time."

 

[Ken Rank]

For myself, personally, I would not ever take a weapon into a church. To me that is akin to blasphemy.

Now I have to add that I'm in Australia, and people just don't wander around in public with guns. It doesn't happen.

Interesting thought on the blasphemy comment... hadn't looked at it that way but I have already made statements on this forum that attributing God's work to another is the crux of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." That idea is obvious if you see a healing, know it is God, and then give credit to another. But if God is our fortress, refuge, rock (etc.)... and we take credit for our protection, can we cross that line of blasphemy? I don't know... it is an interesting thought worth considering. But then again, if the spirit of Exodus 22:2 applies to protecting those we have been entrusted with in our congregations... then what?

As for you being down under... amazing what effect our cultures have on us all!

Blessings.
Ken

 

[razzelflabben]

I would tend to agree. The bible makes a clear distinction between predetermining to go and take a life, and reacting to a situation in self defense. As far as the spirit of the law... would love to look over your notes sometime but I think you're half right... but this is really for another thread. The spirit of the law does indeed reveal the heart and love behind the letter... but it also reveals the intent behind the letter. For example... when Yeshua said that looking upon a woman in lust is you already committing adultery, then he is showing that the intent of the heart is where sin develops, it only becomes obvious in the fleshly act.

My husband and I are currently teaching a "Sunday School" on Sat. night at our church. The topic is how to Love in our relationships. the first we are looking at is how to Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. In that, we begin looking at the heart and how scripture tells us the heart is only evil continually which is why if we love the Lord with all our heart we do so by allowing Him to circumcise our hearts....that is to cut away the sinful desires and replace them with righteous ones. Amen and Amen.

But when we lust in the heart for another woman, we have already broken the command because it has already become real in our hearts. So likewise.... if I decide in my heart I want you dead and I hold you in such contempt... haven't I... in my heart... already killed you?

I believe so and I believe that 1 John 3:15 tells us this to be true.

I think walking in the spirit of the law is actually harder... but I think there is an end point that makes it a way of life....

harder and easier at the same time, today we have the HS within us and it is in His power and strength that we are even able to obey.

Yeshua's message in Matthew 5 isn't him trying to make it even harder to walk out... he is showing us that no matter how hard we try to be righteous, in the end we have to have the changed heart, the law moved from stone to the heart as promised in Deuteronomy 30:1-6 and Ezekiel 11:19 (and others). But again... we can start a letter/spirit thread soon. Blessings.

smiling...amen Great conversation, thanks so much.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think that laying down one's self for someone else means putting them first and making their need more important than your own. Another's need may be them wanting to live.

couldn't it mean both?

 

[jamespyles]

I used to go to a church where a number of members were retired law enforcement officers. They carried and acted as the church's security force. Of course, I'd never have known this if the Pastor hadn't told me.

 

[Tangible]

I would still not carry arms onto Holy Ground - as a Franciscan I am brother of Peace not a brother of violence of any kind. If it meant losing my life in Gods' service then so be it.

It's our natural instinct to protect those we love, and no one should seek out martyrdom. Yet, if it should present itself, are we wrong to use deadly force to resist, as when Peter struck off Malchus' ear?

At least in early times, the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the church. Does that still apply?

 

[381465]

couldn't it mean both?

Sure, just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

I am not God nor do I play him on TV.

 

[Arthur B Via]

As a believer for 45 years and one who truly loves my neighbor as myself I've carried my pistol, legally, with concern for others, not fear for myself. Churches are places with strong emotional and spiritual powers and sadly the evil one does attack them. Protecting one's family and friends is a serious matter in these difficult times so protect those you love!