Security in church

[FireDragon76]

Hey, I'd like to open a thread talking about security in church.


Our congregation (ELCA) is in a low-density urban area in downtown south Orlando. It's not a crime free area and there are alot of homeless. Our congregation has recently implemented a program of having an armed "security ministry". The ministry is made of volunteers who have 100 hours training as security guards and are bonded by an insurance company, and they wear badges around their necks. But otherwise, the church has discouraged people from carrying concealed handguns into the church, even though it is legal in Florida.

I am concerned about having armed security guards looking for "bad guys" in a church. In the presentation the head of the ministry talked about it in those terms. And he talked about potentially asking people their business on church property. Churches deal with troubled people, it's part of our mission, right? These people will sometimes have a great deal of ambiguity about their reasons for being at church. Being too intrusive might turn people off, which is not a good thing. Our religious traditions in the mainline are generally committed to hospitality and serving the wider community, not just being a haven for the churched.

I have brought these concerns up with my pastor but I'm not totally satisfied with the response, even though I think it is a good first step. Mostly I want to check with other Christians that attend mainline churches, and see what your perspective is.

 

[Basil the Great]

To be fair, your situation is different from most Mainline Protestant churches which tend to be located in the suburbs, small towns and rural areas. Hence, most of us will probably have trouble relating to your particular situation. Having said that, I do appreciate your concern in the matter and armed security guards in church would cause some of us to stop, look and listen, at the very least.

 

[Dave-W]

Back about 25 years ago there was an issue in a church in Indiana, about 30 miles south of where I lived at the time. It was a Methodist church and during the sermon a woman walked into the church and started to walk up to the pulpit where the pastor was giving his sermon. He asked her to sit down and she did on the front row. She kept quiet and had her head bowed as if in prayer. Apparently she was a former girl friend of his and a year earlier they had a rather nasty break up.

After the service was concluded and everyone was getting up to leave, she also stood up, pulled a pistol from her purse and killed the pastor.

About 10 years ago there was a guy who started getting noisy and abusive outside a meeting of ours in northern Virginia. He was clearly being antisemitic and claiming he wanted to kill Jews. Police were called. At least once before they arrived he attempted to charge his way into the meeting to shoot some of us. The ushers and guards managed to keep him out. In the interview he said he wanted to kill Jews and did not realize our synagogue was Messianic.

On the deacon board we had some long discussions on whether or not to have armed guards (legal in VA). Our insurance agent said to not tell them if we decided to go that way as our insurance would either go up 3 or 4 times as expensive or be canceled altogether.

As of the time I left there, the issue was still being discussed.

 

[tampasteve]

I will post what I put on the other thread as well, for reference

I am not sure that the church has thought through the possible ramifications of an altercation. I work with a Loss Prevention Security (LP) team at a department store (nationally). At one time the local LP officer would confront people that were shoplifting, drunk, etc. at the store. That was until one was shot and killed by a shoplifter and the store was sued by the family. Now the LP officers observe and call the police. They might talk to someone that is clearly not dangerous and ask them to leave - but that is it.

What happens if there is an active shooter? Is this security team really going to be able to do anything? What happens when a security team member confronts a drunk and belligerent person that stabs them? What happens when that person's family sues the church? Even with blanket no-harm, no-liability contracts the church is not really protected.

The church would be better off with a couple of greeters, cameras, and if they feel the need they can hire an off duty sheriff, police, or Florida Highway Patrol officer to watch the church during services.​

Even though the "officers" are bonded and took the basic security training class, that would not help the backlash from media attention if one of the team gets trigger happy and shoots a homeless person that might be acting aggressive. It would help in a lawsuit if the church were sued by one of the officer's families if they were injured or killed while in "ministry", but would be unlikely to cover all of the expenses, or even most. Personally I believe a more nuanced approach with CCTV cameras, greeters, and a uniformed officer would be much more appropriate. Many churches have officers for traffic control as it is, so most people would not be turned off by the presence - but any "bad guys" would think twice if they saw a patrol car out front of the church.

 

[Richard T]

I appreciate any church that has armed security. There are too many wackos. As long as they approach any potential visitor with respect you should not worry about it.

 

[PloverWing]

My instinct is that a "security ministry" is the wrong way to go.

If your parish is located in the midst of large numbers of homeless people, then there's your ministry, right on your doorstep. Talk with your visitors, welcome them into your church, see if they have needs for food or shelter or friendship, and try to meet those needs if you can, possibly by partnering with other churches in the area. Instead of "asking people their business on church property", greet them and invite them in: "Welcome to ___ Lutheran church. How can I help you today? Would you like to talk over a sandwich and a cup of coffee? Our services are at 8 and 10 am on Sundays. We'd love for you to join us."

If you really are having trouble with burglaries and violent crimes occurring on the church property, then you may need to have locks and security cameras, and to call the police on occasion. But I don't like the idea of looking at visitors as potential "bad guys".

I've only been involved with a couple of churches in high-poverty areas. St Philip's Episcopal Church in Durham, NC, cooperates with other local churches to provide food and shelter for poor and homeless residents of the city, as well as working to transform some of the social structures that lead to poverty. I volunteered at their soup kitchen a few times when I lived in Durham, and attended a study group (EFM) that met there in the evenings. I saw the ways that the church was reaching out to the community, but I never saw anything like security guards. Durham is about the size of Orlando. Currently, I live in a small town of 20,000 people, but we have significant poverty in the town; the local Episcopal church distributes groceries for free once a month to nearby families in need, serving a few hundred people each month. Again, no security guards. The presence of security guards in these parishes would be wrong, would be putting up a fence between "us" and "them", between the church members and the community.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hey, I'd like to open a thread talking about security in church.


Our congregation (ELCA) is in a low-density urban area in downtown south Orlando. It's not a crime free area and there are alot of homeless. Our congregation has recently implemented a program of having an armed "security ministry". The ministry is made of volunteers who have 100 hours training as security guards and are bonded by an insurance company, and they wear badges around their necks. But otherwise, the church has discouraged people from carrying concealed handguns into the church, even though it is legal in Florida.

I am concerned about having armed security guards looking for "bad guys" in a church. In the presentation the head of the ministry talked about it in those terms. And he talked about potentially asking people their business on church property. Churches deal with troubled people, it's part of our mission, right? These people will sometimes have a great deal of ambiguity about their reasons for being at church. Being too intrusive might turn people off, which is not a good thing. Our religious traditions in the mainline are generally committed to hospitality and serving the wider community, not just being a haven for the churched.

I have brought these concerns up with my pastor but I'm not totally satisfied with the response, even though I think it is a good first step. Mostly I want to check with other Christians that attend mainline churches, and see what your perspective is.

Bulletproof whiteboards in every room are a simple solution. You can preach the gospel and push the assailant against the wall at the same time. Crowd-Push him into the baptismal and hold him there until he settles down and accepts Christ. Or just settles down.
Bulletproof Whiteboards - Hardwire LLC

 

[FireDragon76]

My instinct is that a "security ministry" is the wrong way to go.

If your parish is located in the midst of large numbers of homeless people, then there's your ministry, right on your doorstep. Talk with your visitors, welcome them into your church, see if they have needs for food or shelter or friendship, and try to meet those needs if you can, possibly by partnering with other churches in the area. Instead of "asking people their business on church property", greet them and invite them in: "Welcome to ___ Lutheran church. How can I help you today? Would you like to talk over a sandwich and a cup of coffee? Our services are at 8 and 10 am on Sundays. We'd love for you to join us."

If you really are having trouble with burglaries and violent crimes occurring on the church property, then you may need to have locks and security cameras, and to call the police on occasion. But I don't like the idea of looking at visitors as potential "bad guys".

I've only been involved with a couple of churches in high-poverty areas. St Philip's Episcopal Church in Durham, NC, cooperates with other local churches to provide food and shelter for poor and homeless residents of the city, as well as working to transform some of the social structures that lead to poverty. I volunteered at their soup kitchen a few times when I lived in Durham, and attended a study group (EFM) that met there in the evenings. I saw the ways that the church was reaching out to the community, but I never saw anything like security guards. Durham is about the size of Orlando. Currently, I live in a small town of 20,000 people, but we have significant poverty in the town; the local Episcopal church distributes groceries for free once a month to nearby families in need, serving a few hundred people each month. Again, no security guards. The presence of security guards in these parishes would be wrong, would be putting up a fence between "us" and "them", between the church members and the community.

How do I convince folks at my congregation to welcome strangers more and be less afraid of homeless people? I told my pastor about this and he said its an issue of distinguishing Law and Gospel. Sort of, "wouldn't it be nice but... there are practical concerns of old people who can be easily frightened, and they are my primary responsibility as a pastor".

Also, please pray for my congregation.

I've been reflecting on what Tampasteve said. It sounds like the consensus here is that armed security guards are potentially more trouble than they are worth. I would agree. But, I'm not in charge of those decisions. Personally, I wonder how our church's insurance policy could cover security guards, I believe they would not be happy about that unless the state of Florida has some wierd laws. I wonder if the pastor and council have considered potential liability?

I used to be into martial arts and self defense years ago in my more paranoid, testosterone driven years. But I read books on self defense that said that most of it is Rambo fantasies and if you aren't killed in a fight, chances are the lawsuit will kill you or you'll land up in jail. So your best defense is just street smarts. Are people at church thinking that way? I really doubt it. I think people mean well but they are ex-soldiers that only think about "security" in terms of guns.

 

[PloverWing]

Would your congregation be willing to participate in Interfaith Hospitality Network / Family Promise? (Home - Family Promise of Greater Orlando | Helping homeless families) Our parish participates, and it's been one of the biggest factors for me in transforming "The Homeless" from an amorphous blob of people on the evening news into this particular mom with her 2 kids, that particular husband and wife whose house burned down, etc. Families are housed for a week at a time in church/synagogue buildings in a city or county; we cook meals for the families, and sit and chat with them over dinner, and we convert our Sunday School area into bedrooms for a week. Maybe some of the older church members who are nervous about "The Homeless" would be willing to cook a meal for a couple of families or help set up cots for them in the Sunday School wing.

 

[FireDragon76]

Would your congregation be willing to participate in Interfaith Hospitality Network / Family Promise? (Home - Family Promise of Greater Orlando | Helping homeless families) Our parish participates, and it's been one of the biggest factors for me in transforming "The Homeless" from an amorphous blob of people on the evening news into this particular mom with her 2 kids, that particular husband and wife whose house burned down, etc. Families are housed for a week at a time in church/synagogue buildings in a city or county; we cook meals for the families, and sit and chat with them over dinner, and we convert our Sunday School area into bedrooms for a week. Maybe some of the older church members who are nervous about "The Homeless" would be willing to cook a meal for a couple of families or help set up cots for them in the Sunday School wing.

We actually don't have alot of "regular" homeless who are around our church. We have alot of mentally ill people who I presume are homeless. Like the guy that occasionally comes to our church to swat at invisible things in the large field beside the church, or the guy that used to ride a bike and collect magical herbs. Those are the sorts of things pastor knows are disturbing to people.

Also, pastor once indulged a seemingly homeless man a few months ago and gave him some of the money we have for emergencies, and it turned out he was a felon who then procededed to go rob somebody's house afterwards (I think, I don't remember the details because it's been a while). And he ended up having to talk to law enforcement about the incident. So I can understand why he is wary.

 

[PloverWing]

Hmm. Mental illness and criminal behavior are tough to deal with. I'm not sure what to tell you.