Secular Non Biblical Sources For The Existence Of The Lord Jesus Christ in History

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I saw another thread about this, but I figured that I would post this information here :


This video was made by Chris White and References some of these Sources :

• CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.)
Tacitus - Wikipedia

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

• GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.)
Suetonius - Wikipedia

"During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale. Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people. The pantomimic actors and their partisans were banished from the city."



• THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.)
Thallus (historian) - Wikipedia

• PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D)
Pliny the Younger - Wikipedia

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

• CELSUS (~ 178 A.D.)
Celsus - Wikipedia

“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, *****. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”

• LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA (120 - ~180 A.D.)
Lucian - Wikipedia

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

• MARA BAR-SERAPION (Post 70 A.D)
Mara bar Serapion on Jesus - Wikipedia

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

• FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (37 - 100 A.D.)
Josephus - Wikipedia

“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier,

• THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD
Talmud - Wikipedia



• CLEMENT OF ROME (? - 98? A.D.)
Pope Clement I - Wikipedia



• IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (? - ~100 A.D)
Ignatius of Antioch - Wikipedia



• QUADRATUS OF ATHENS (126 A.D.)
Quadratus of Athens - Wikipedia



• JUSTIN MARTYR (~100 - 165 A.D.)
Justin Martyr - Wikipedia



• HEGESIPPUS (110 A.D. - 180 A.D.)
Hegesippus (chronicler) - Wikipedia

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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

This is a video about the Quotes from Josephus about The Lord Jesus Christ :

 

[Saucy]

The problem for atheists would be that none of those people lived during the time of Christ. They can't be eyewitnesses and rely on other sources.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

The problem for atheists would be that none of those people lived during the time of Christ. They can't be eyewitnesses and rely on other sources.

I don't know what to tell them then. Some of The Disciples were alive though when these historians were writing this information.

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[Tolworth John]

I refer people with doubts/querries to coldcasechristianity.
Partly because the information above can be found there but mainly because an experienced cold case dectective is writing about evidence and whether it is reliable etc.
many non christians do not have reasonable objections to Christianity, they object becauseof emotional reason so no matter what evidence or rreason one presents they will not believe.

Ultimatly we have to commit them to God and his grace and mercy.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

From : Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible? | Cold Case Christianity

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The problem for atheists would be that none of those people lived during the time of Christ. They can't be eyewitnesses and rely on other sources.

Also, they (may) know what idolatry is, and when they see it practiced daily , they ignore the rest of what is said.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.)

• GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.)

• THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.)

• PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D)

• CELSUS (~ 178 A.D.)

• LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA (120 - ~180 A.D.)

• MARA BAR-SERAPION (Post 70 A.D)



• FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (37 - 100 A.D.)

• THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD




• CLEMENT OF ROME (? - 98? A.D.)

• IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (? - ~100 A.D)

• QUADRATUS OF ATHENS (126 A.D.)

• JUSTIN MARTYR (~100 - 165 A.D.)

• HEGESIPPUS (110 A.D. - 180 A.D.)

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Here's some of the Quotes from The Writers :



• Tacitus (56-120 A.D.)
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

• Mara Bar-Serapion (70 A.D.)
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

• Pliny the Younger (61-113 A.D.)
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

• Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

• Celsus (175 A.D.)
“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, *****. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”

• Josephus (37-101 A.D.)
“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier,

From : Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible? | Cold Case Christianity

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The problem for atheists would be that none of those people lived during the time of Christ. They can't be eyewitnesses and rely on other sources.

Albert Schweitzer, in his book "The Quest For The Historical Jesus" detailed the search for the historical Jesus, leaving out the Gospels, and testimonies of Christian commentators, and depending on secular sources alone. He maintained that the search for the historical Jesus failed through lack of substantive secular evidence. I believe him.

The only way we can be sure of the historicity of Jesus is through the New Testament Gospels. This is more substantive than believing in a "christ of faith", because the faith of traditional, Bible-believing Christians is based on the definite historical record contained in the New Testament Gospels. Luke interviewed all the eye witnesses to Jesus' life and ministry, and most of the 500 eye witnesses to His resurrection. Because of the detailed and meticulous research that Luke did, his gospel history is as reliable as any other well-researched history.

It was not that Luke wrote a substandard hearsay account of the life of Jesus, but that those who searched for the historical Jesus made the arbitrary decision to ignore Luke's history, and because they ignored the only reliable history of the time, they failed.

 

[Saucy]

Albert Schweitzer, in his book "The Quest For The Historical Jesus" detailed the search for the historical Jesus, leaving out the Gospels, and testimonies of Christian commentators, and depending on secular sources alone. He maintained that the search for the historical Jesus failed through lack of substantive secular evidence. I believe him.

The only way we can be sure of the historicity of Jesus is through the New Testament Gospels. This is more substantive than believing in a "christ of faith", because the faith of traditional, Bible-believing Christians is based on the definite historical record contained in the New Testament Gospels. Luke interviewed all the eye witnesses to Jesus' life and ministry, and most of the 500 eye witnesses to His resurrection. Because of the detailed and meticulous research that Luke did, his gospel history is as reliable as any other well-researched history.

It was not that Luke wrote a substandard hearsay account of the life of Jesus, but that those who searched for the historical Jesus made the arbitrary decision to ignore Luke's history, and because they ignored the only reliable history of the time, they failed.

Exactly. The gospels ARE the eyewitness accounts, but because they are included in a book called "The Bible", they dismiss those accounts. The bible is just a collection of letters and stories written over thousands of years, put together in recent history. It's like discounting every single eyewitness account of any historical figure just because you'd rather believe Alexander the Great or Abraham Lincoln was really a myth. It's dumb.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Yeah, this thread is for sceptics that don’t think that there are any secular sources for Jesus’ existence outside of The Bible.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Another video by Chris White about the existence of Jesus in history :

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

This is a good book on the subject by: Robert E. Van Voorst


https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Outside-New-Testament-Introduction/dp/0802843689/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1544649594&sr=1-1&keywords=Jesus+outside+the+new+testament

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Another Video:

 

[mindlight]

Secular commentators do not have to exclude Christian sources to remain impartial here. Indeed since it was Christians who were involved in the rise of the church and were being put to death for that you would expect Christians to be the primary source for information about their founder rather than those who were indifferent to them, intent on marginalising and ignoring them or directly persecuting them.

Fact is the last apostle John died in 100AD having written his gospel in 85AD. Meaning that people who knew John personally could have been alive at the time of the Muratorian canon 170AD albeit quite old by that time. That means that we have a reasonable chain of evidence affirming the scriptures that takes us from the time of the apostles themselves and into the time period when church fathers , actual fragments of scripture and secular authors started to write about the growing churches in their midst and the life of Jesus that inspired them.

So we have two extra evidences to add to the secular ones here. The growth of the human community of the church and the audit trail of interlocked relationships and lives affirming each others testimony is one of these. The eyewitness testimony of the scriptures themselves to the life of Christ is the other again with a credible audit trail reaching back to the times they witness to.

There is also a host of circumstantial evidence affirming details of the bible record like for example an inscription in the theatre in Caesarea referring to Pontius Pilate who as governor of Judea was based there at the time of Christ.

But even if someone ignored all this there would be the testimony of the Holy Spirit who lives in us who believe.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

 

[ilovechloe]

I saw another thread about this, but I figured that I would post this information here :
• CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.)
Tacitus - Wikipedia
• GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.)
Suetonius - Wikipedia
• THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.)
Thallus (historian) - Wikipedia

• PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D)
Pliny the Younger - Wikipedia
• CELSUS (~ 178 A.D.)
Celsus - Wikipedia
• LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA (120 - ~180 A.D.)
Lucian - Wikipedia
• MARA BAR-SERAPION (Post 70 A.D)
Mara bar Serapion on Jesus - Wikipedia
• FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (37 - 100 A.D.)
Josephus - Wikipedia
• THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD
Talmud - Wikipedia
• CLEMENT OF ROME (? - 98? A.D.)
Pope Clement I - Wikipedia
• IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (? - ~100 A.D)
Ignatius of Antioch - Wikipedia
• QUADRATUS OF ATHENS (126 A.D.)
Quadratus of Athens - Wikipedia
• JUSTIN MARTYR (~100 - 165 A.D.)
Justin Martyr - Wikipedia
• HEGESIPPUS (110 A.D. - 180 A.D.)
Hegesippus (chronicler) - Wikipedia

How can any of the above be evidence for the historical Jesus, when not one of them was alive when Jesus was alive? Anything they wrote would only be repeating hearsay that they have heard from others, probably other Christians. Pliny the younger certainly had no idea who Jesus was. He didnt even know who Christians were, which is why he wrote to the Emperor to ask him how he should deal with them, because he had never come across them before.

Josephus also makes no reference to Jesus. The text that is quoted with regards to Josephus is widely thought to be an interpolation (forgery) that was inserted in the 4th Century, & even if it is genuine, Josephus could only be writing what he had heard from others, as he wasnt even born when Jesus was alive.

 

[Resha Caner]

How can any of the above be evidence for the historical Jesus, when not one of them was alive when Jesus was alive? Anything they wrote would only be repeating hearsay that they have heard from others, probably other Christians. Pliny the younger certainly had no idea who Jesus was. He didnt even know who Christians were, which is why he wrote to the Emperor to ask him how he should deal with them, because he had never come across them before.

Josephus also makes no reference to Jesus. The text that is quoted with regards to Josephus is widely thought to be an interpolation (forgery) that was inserted in the 4th Century, & even if it is genuine, Josephus could only be writing what he had heard from others, as he wasnt even born when Jesus was alive.

Personally meeting the one you're writing about is not an exclusive historical requirement. Historians constantly consider the reliability of a source based on many factors. If that were the requirement, then the fact that no one living today ever met Josephus would mean we can't believe anything he wrote. The simple fact is that Josephus is an extremely important historical source.

Speculation about interpolations is widely exaggerated by lay historians.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

How can any of the above be evidence for the historical Jesus, when not one of them was alive when Jesus was alive? Anything they wrote would only be repeating hearsay that they have heard from others, probably other Christians. Pliny the younger certainly had no idea who Jesus was. He didnt even know who Christians were, which is why he wrote to the Emperor to ask him how he should deal with them, because he had never come across them before.

Josephus also makes no reference to Jesus. The text that is quoted with regards to Josephus is widely thought to be an interpolation (forgery) that was inserted in the 4th Century, & even if it is genuine, Josephus could only be writing what he had heard from others, as he wasnt even born when Jesus was alive.

The video on Post #2 talks about the Josephus quotes.



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