Searching for true News about the Russo-Ukraine conflict

[Tom 1]

She doesn't know for sure herself thats why she is not in a position to absolutely say, she says staff said to her "there was no airstrike." Could she not just be trying to make sense of something that happened? Do you think it was not targeted because Russians had intelligence AZOV soldiers were using it, and thought all the patients had been evacuated?

What is the point of such random speculation? It’s the exact effect the writers of that kind of article are aiming for, confusion.

You can’t know everything that’s going on anywhere, but there are reliable media sources that have people on the ground checking the facts. Most of the time, almost all of the time, you can profit from their work to learn about a given situation, and if it interests you, you can invest in a few books to learn more. You made some claims that there was something suspect about ‘the media’, claims you haven’t been able to substantiate. Now you’re putting up random newsites which, for some reason, you appear to be less suspicious of. Whatever it is you have against the idea of simply learning about a given topic until you understand it, I don’t get it. If you think you can somehow figure it out through an information-light process of deduction, you’re simply wrong. If you think there is something to be gained from diving down a bottomless rabbit-hole, or you feel somehow compelled to do that, that’s up to you.

 

[Tom 1]

She doesn't know for sure herself thats why she is not in a position to absolutely say, she says staff said to her "there was no airstrike." Could she not just be trying to make sense of something that happened to her? I am not sure about her account, I have listend to it a time or two and cannot decide. You could be correct though.

On a side note Ukrainian forces have used civilian structures to hide gear and regroup, and so on, when the fighting has been in urban areas. Much as troops in WWII and many other conflicts did. What’s there and fits the requirements is what gets used.

 

[dms1972]

On a side note Ukrainian forces have used civilian structures to hide gear and regroup, and so on, when the fighting has been in urban areas. Much as troops in WWII and many other conflicts did. What’s there and fits the requirements is what gets used.

With regard to the girl at the maternity hospital I don't see that it fits disinformation. She is just giving her story, because she was photographed and a number of media outlets carried her picture. By itself its not cast iron proof there was no air strike, neither is it disinformation. It fills out some missing detail that the hospital building had been requistioned sometime before the event.

 

[Tom 1]

With regard to the girl at the maternity hospital I don't see that it fits disinformation. She is just giving her story, because she was photographed and a number of media outlets carried her picture. By itself its not cast iron proof there was no air strike, neither is it disinformation. It fills out some missing detail that the hospital building had been requistioned sometime before the event.

Maybe/maybe not. The best lies always have some truth in them. The KGB and their successors have been at this kind of thing since at least the 80s, they’re pretty good at it. The aim is to sow confusion, not to make anything definite one way or the other.

 

[dms1972]

You can’t know everything that’s going on anywhere, but there are reliable media sources that have people on the ground checking the facts. Most of the time, almost all of the time, you can profit from their work to learn about a given situation, and if it interests you, you can invest in a few books to learn more. You made some claims that there was something suspect about ‘the media’, claims you haven’t been able to substantiate.

No I made claims that there was disinformation both Ukrainian and Russian, and that some events seem to contradict others and some reports seem to contradict others.

If you read my other comments. That is exactly what I suggested. If I'd posted the BBC it would have been "random" in your eyes, because random is only what it is to you, not to me. I read, I weigh up I decide if I will post something to give another take on it - therefore not random. I repeat its a different take on it. Take it or leave it.

Its another source, another take with either the same or a different worldview. I think your issue and mine at times seems to be the worldviews. I haven't said believe this or that website, its right. I don't have to exhaustively answer your questions, or give my reasons.

There is someone in the thread posted an online guy who is making prognostications as if this chap is the best source of News. I wholly disagree. Its not News, its prognostications.

I have said the ALT-News is not necessarily reliable either. If you have a western take you prefer that is fine.

People on the ground. Yes I look for articles with people on the ground checking things. Eg.

Babi Yar memorial said to be undamaged by Russian missile strike (ynetnews.com)

Now, I have read your replies, and I have to some extent explained my reasons. But I am not going to keep discussing it with you endlessly.

 

[Tom 1]

No I made claims that there was disinformation both Ukrainian and Russian, and that some events seem to contradict others and some reports seem to contradict others.

If you read my other comments. That is exactly what I suggested. If I'd posted the BBC it would have been "random" in your eyes, because random is only what it is to you, not to me. I read, I weigh up I decide if I will post something to give another take on it - therefore not random. I repeat its a different take on it. Take it or leave it.

Its another source, another take with either the same or a different worldview. I think your issue and mine at times seems to be the worldviews. I haven't said believe this or that website, its right. I don't have to exhaustively answer your questions, or give my reasons.

There is someone in the thread posted an online guy who is making prognostications as if this chap is the best source of News. I wholly disagree. Its not News, its prognostications.

I have said the ALT-News is not necessarily reliable either. If you have a western take you prefer that is fine.

People on the ground. Yes I look for articles with people on the ground checking things. Eg.

Babi Yar memorial said to be undamaged by Russian missile strike (ynetnews.com)

Now, I have read your replies, and I have to some extent explained my reasons. But I am not going to keep discussing it with you endlessly.

A good example of ambiguous reporting in the article cited - it says ‘The Ukrainian government on Tuesday reported the site and the surrounding Jewish graves were damaged’. Without any further quotes or evidence, it then conflates this with an apparent claim that the monument was damaged. Who claimed that? When and where? It may be that such a claim was made, but you wouldn’t know that from reading the article. Nonetheless, it has worked as intended on you - you have been left with the impression that a claim of damage to the monument was made, when in fact no such claim is cited.

Ukraine has been silent on sabotage activities behind Russian lines, and on its own military casualties. They have gone with upper estimates of civilian dead and Russian casualties, and I’m sure they have behaved as all other govts do in time of war by choosing what information to share or deny carefully. Ukraine, as no-one doubts, is far from being a modern, well-functioning state. Misinformation? That would be a rather ungenerous assessment, especially in comparison with the far more extensive and calculated disinformation coming out of the Kremlin and from it’s clownish media reps. Check through the claims in your earlier Canada news article and you won’t find much that sticks.

 

[Tom 1]

No I made claims that there was disinformation both Ukrainian and Russian, and that some events seem to contradict others and some reports seem to contradict others.

If you read my other comments. That is exactly what I suggested. If I'd posted the BBC it would have been "random" in your eyes, because random is only what it is to you, not to me. I read, I weigh up I decide if I will post something to give another take on it - therefore not random. I repeat its a different take on it. Take it or leave it.

Its another source, another take with either the same or a different worldview. I think your issue and mine at times seems to be the worldviews. I haven't said believe this or that website, its right. I don't have to exhaustively answer your questions, or give my reasons.

There is someone in the thread posted an online guy who is making prognostications as if this chap is the best source of News. I wholly disagree. Its not News, its prognostications.

I have said the ALT-News is not necessarily reliable either. If you have a western take you prefer that is fine.

People on the ground. Yes I look for articles with people on the ground checking things. Eg.

Babi Yar memorial said to be undamaged by Russian missile strike (ynetnews.com)

Now, I have read your replies, and I have to some extent explained my reasons. But I am not going to keep discussing it with you endlessly.

The claims I was initially responding to were about whether there has been any good faith in negotiations from the Russian side, the reliability of established media sites vs random internet gossip and dodgy sources like those you have cited. Of course you can stop discussing this whenever you like.

 

[dms1972]

It’s not really possible to answer your questions without your having some wider understanding of the relevant issues. If you want to know about Russian military tactics, for example, you don’t need to imagine what they might do, you can study their campaigns in Chechnya, Georgia and Syria, for example, or the behaviour of Russian troops in Ukraine, Poland etc towards the end of WWII. Putin wasn’t really joking when he used a rape allusion to describe what Ukraine had coming. These aren’t stereotypes about Russians, they’re historical examples of the behaviour of Russian troops. The current Russian govt is the grandchild of the Russian state that inflicted the Holmodor on Ukraine. These are just facts, you don’t need to grasp for what might be the case when you can learn about the actual reality of it instead.

One conflict is different from another. Putin seems to be very much aware of the danger of NATO becoming directly involved and doesn't want that. So we cannot evaluate their strategy here by previous conflicts where that would have been much less likely to happen. I am not going to get caught up in the current paranoia.

 

[dms1972]

Misinformation? That would be a rather ungenerous assessment, especially in comparison with the far more extensive and calculated disinformation coming out of the Kremlin and from it’s clownish media reps.

Misinformation and disinformation from both sides. From the Ukrainian side misinformation or withholding some details about losses is to some extent understandable. As are some reports eg. the Russian made about their ship. There is a lot that isn't helpful and that includes from Ukraine government as well as Russia. A protracted war is not the most rational when there are other rational options that can be pursued.

As I said before its not about mantras or demands. Its about sitting down and reasoning together each side has legitimate interests. This is true for Russian diplomacy and peace making efforts as well as others.

There is not a monolithic worldview even across western media outlets. However some I trust more than others, none will I give blind faith. Really when I started the thread there are more outlandish claims than anything I have made in it. That wasn't my intent, but I cannot stop people posting - so stop going at me.

 

[Tom 1]

One conflict is different from another. Putin seems to be very much aware of the danger of NATO becoming directly involved and doesn't want that. So we cannot evaluate their strategy here by previous conflicts where that would have been much less likely to happen. I am not going to get caught up in the current paranoia.

I think you’re misunderstanding the point. Have you ever served in the armed forces? Militaries have cultures, like any other group. A military steeped in a long history of rape and murder, not to mention a total disregard of the welfare of its own troops, not only doesn’t but can’t change its stripes just like that. There has been some restraint in Ukraine, comparatively, but that’s only a comparison of extent rather than type.

 

[Tom 1]

other rational options that can be pursued.

Like what? What options are there that don’t lead to the surrender of Ukrainian territory and an expansion of the conflict across borders, into Moldova for example? Please be specific.

Its about sitting down and reasoning together each side has legitimate interests.

I asked you earlier for an example of the good faith you say the Russian side has shown in negotiations. You haven’t yet provided an example of that, unless you can come up with a convincing argument (convincing as in based on some evidence) that Russia’s forced retreat from Kyiv was actually a good will gesture.

 

[dms1972]

Maybe/maybe not. The best lies always have some truth in them. The KGB and their successors have been at this kind of thing since at least the 80s, they’re pretty good at it. The aim is to sow confusion, not to make anything definite one way or the other.

Jee whizz you really do seem to only apply your critique to the Russian side. I am finished debating with you.

 

[dms1972]

Like what? What options are there that don’t lead to the surrender of Ukrainian territory and an expansion of the conflict across borders, into Moldova for example? Please be specific.

Its all been said in the thread. I am finished arguing with you.

 

[Tom 1]

Misinformation and disinformation from both sides. From the Ukrainian side misinformation or withholding some details about losses is to some extent understandable. As are some reports eg. the Russian made about their ship. There is a lot that isn't helpful and that includes from Ukraine government as well as Russia. A protracted war is not the most rational when there are other rational options that can be pursued.

As I said before its not about mantras or demands. Its about sitting down and reasoning together each side has legitimate interests. This is true for Russian diplomacy and peace making efforts as well as others.

There is not a monolithic worldview even across western media outlets. However some I trust more than others, none will I give blind faith. Really will I started the thread there are more outlandish claims than anything I have made in it. That wasn't my intent, but I cannot stop people posting - so stop going at me.

It seems you don’t understand the Soviet mentality. Modern Russia is not Soviet Russia, it has an educated, well-travelled middle class (many of whom have left the country) for one thing, and it is not a totalitarian state. The contents of Putin’s brain, however, are a different story. While Russia as a whole has begun to move on, Putin (and others like him) have not. Lying isn’t just something the Soviet state did, lying was the grammar and syntax of Soviet communication. Deceit was woven into fabric of Soviet society, take that away and there wouldn’t have been much left. The notion of ‘good faith’ is as much of a joke in the Kremlin as the demands of Russian troops for proper equipment and integrity in military leadership.

 

[Tom 1]

Jee whizz you really do seem to only apply your critique to the Russian side. I am finished debating with you.

You have yet to provide any substantive reason for me to think otherwise. Link some of your claims to some concrete comparison, and we can take a look at it.

 

[Tom 1]

Its all been said in the thread. I am finished arguing with you.

You haven’t said anything that would answer that question. Vague allusions to something Putin said butter no parsnips.

 

[dms1972]

You haven’t said anything that would answer that question. Vague allusions to something Putin said butter no parsnips.

Read what you want, believe what you want. Let others do the same. Have a nice day.

 

[Tom 1]

Read what you want, believe what you want. Let others do the same. Have a nice day.

Whether or not I ‘let’ anyone do what they want has no meaning or application. If you have a view on this, you ought to be able to provide some evidence for that view.

 

[dms1972]

A good example of ambiguous reporting in the article cited - it says ‘The Ukrainian government on Tuesday reported the site and the surrounding Jewish graves were damaged’. Without any further quotes or evidence, it then conflates this with an apparent claim that the monument was damaged. Who claimed that? When and where?

There is no conflation, it clarifies what the extent of the damage was which earlier reports didn't. The writer is simply being specific as to what there was at the site which was damaged and what was not. It is easily understandable he would clarify about the monument and whether it was damaged, because it is one of several important focal points on the site, one where people leave candles etc. Even if there had been no claim about it specifically being damaged it is completely ok to clarify whether or not it was and what the extent of the damage to the site was, as the previous report was that a bomb hit the Baybn Yar site (big place). This is a perfectly good way of reading it. He is being specific and clarifying. It doesn't conflate anything.

 

[dms1972]

Whether or not I ‘let’ anyone do what they want has no meaning or application. If you have a view on this, you ought to be able to provide some evidence for that view.

Whether or not it has meaning or application for you - I will decide what I believe or disbelieve or withhold opinion or judgment about. Like you I have my own agency there on what I read and what I decide to think about it.

No one here is required to give you exhaustive reasons for their views until you are satisified. Your supposed "rationality" is not the bounds for others as you are as capable of reasoning well or poorly as anyone else. And as you said you have no special insight or knowledge as neither have I.

So lets just leave it at that.