Searching for true News about the Russo-Ukraine conflict

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
It’s not complicated. Pick an article from any of the sources listed in my earlier post, on another generally considered to be a serious member of the ‘MSM’, e.g the FT, The WSJ, the Independent, not some random internet rag, and provide a clearly reasoned argument as to its ‘fakeness’. This will then provide a good basis to discuss whether the original article, or the sources you use to show it is fake, are more credible.

What about the UK Telegraph?
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ok, that’s a start. So, to clarify, what you mean is that this is fake:

Vladimir Putin is set to declare all-out war on Ukraine as his military chiefs seek “payback” for their invasion failures, according to Russian sources and Western officials.

Frustrated army chiefs are urging the Russian president to drop the term “special operation” used for the invasion and instead declare war, which would enable mass mobilisation of Russians’

Your view is that ‘Russian Sources and Western Officials’ did not believe or claim that Putin was planning to declare national mobilisation, and that ‘frustrated army chiefs’ were not angling for Putin to do this? Is that what you are claiming is fake, or is it something else?
 
Upvote 0

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As regards gestures of good will or good faith, Russian leaders did respond to early drafts in the first few weeks from Ukraine aimed at finding an agreement and withdrew about 2 thirds of their forces that were near Kyiv. Hungarian leader telling Putin over the phone to call an immediate ceasefire, and offering possibility of Hungary hosting peace talks was also said to have been received positively by Putin. None of this has yet resulted in an ceasefire however. And it is hard to know what is happening exactly at this moment, or what future proposals might be put forward.
Putin never intended to negotiate until Ukraine capitulated.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tom 1
Upvote 0

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What leads you to think that Russia’s retreat from Kyiv, after repeated failed attempts to take the city, was the result of some agreement?
The agreement was that Russia was taking huge losses and could not hold territory. IOW Russia was taking a butt kicking.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tom 1
Upvote 0

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
People who have done their "research" are uninformed and this is a uniform trait? So you claim some special knowledge of affairs then do you, do you claim special insight, that other people at least as intelligent if not moreso than you cannot somehow arrive at an informed position? What is this privileged access to reality you possess, that no one else who has done their research possesses? Do tell.
SGOTI and SGOYT are many of the most believed news sources now.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

From the headline, that is the same as your link text in the independent article:
Putin ‘to declare all-out war on Ukraine on Russian Victory Day’, officials fear

The article, like the other one from the Telegraph, goes on to cite various sources variously speculating and giving their views that Putin was going to, or should, declare the 'special operation' a war, making it possible to begin mass mobilisation, on May 9th. There were various articles of this kind, quoting individuals speculating about what might happen on that day, some more in-depth and analytical than others, in the Telegraph and various other papers, just as there was speculation back in February about whether or not Putin would actually order an invasion of Ukraine.

So...what is it that you think is fake? Are you saying that this speculation never actually happened, that the people cited in the articles don't really exist? That the 'officials' referred to did not 'fear' this would happen? Or what? I can see that you've linked to a couple of articles, but what is missing is your comments on what you think is fake about them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Frustrated army chiefs are urging the Russian president to drop the term “special operation” used for the invasion and instead declare war, which would enable mass mobilisation of Russians’

Ok how do we know that frustrated army chiefs were urging the Russian president? Is there some more basic source? There is no quote of anyone in particular.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ok how do we know that frustrated army chiefs were urging the Russian president? Is there some more basic source? There is no quote of anyone in particular.
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘more basic’. The Telegraph cites this person as an expert:

“The military are outraged that the blitz on Kyiv has failed,” Irina Borogan, a Russian expert close to Moscow security services, told The Telegraph.

What’s your angle here? Do you think the Telegraph and similar sources are simply making things up?

A lack of a strong reaction among military higher ups over the embarrassing performance of their troops would be pretty strange. No-one in the military likes to lose, regardless of whether they think the fight is just, or not.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘more basic’. The Telegraph cites this person as an expert:

“The military are outraged that the blitz on Kyiv has failed,” Irina Borogan, a Russian expert close to Moscow security services, told The Telegraph.

What’s your angle here? Do you think the Telegraph and similar sources are simply making things up?

A lack of a strong reaction among military higher ups over the embarrassing performance of their troops would be pretty strange. No-one in the military likes to lose, regardless of whether they think the fight is just, or not.

Yes, ok: I can see now that there was more behind that from some other coverage which I had not seen eg: Vicious Blame Game Erupts Among Putin’s Security Forces - The Moscow Times

However this struck me, it says they are operating with a bar on airstrikes? There have been a lot of requests from Ukraine about getting a No Fly Zone. So has Russia been avoiding airstrikes then?

"Senior officers have therefore concluded that the Western alliance is fighting all out (through the supply of increasingly sophisticated weaponry) while its own forces operate under peacetime constraints like a bar on airstrikes against some key areas of Ukraine’s infrastructure."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
However this struck , they say they are operating with a bar on airstrikes?

That Russia is/was? Yes Russian forces have targeted soft civilian and some military posts for air strikes, but early on avoided damaging infrastructure they would need to use themselves for supply lines etc, railways and airstrips and so on. Putin’s original aim was to install a puppet regime, there was nothing to be gained by crippling Ukraine’s industry if the country would effectively become part of Russia. That has changed to some extent as that goal was not met. Plus Russia has a limited supply of the kind of smart munitions needed for precision strikes.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, ok: I can see now that there was more behind that from some other coverage which I had not seen eg: Vicious Blame Game Erupts Among Putin’s Security Forces - The Moscow Times

However this struck me, it says they are operating with a bar on airstrikes? There have been a lot of requests from Ukraine about getting a No Fly Zone. So has Russia been avoiding airstrikes then?

"Senior officers have therefore concluded that the Western alliance is fighting all out (through the supply of increasingly sophisticated weaponry) while its own forces operate under peacetime constraints like a bar on airstrikes against some key areas of Ukraine’s infrastructure."
For some comparison, ‘air strikes’ when referred to by the Russian military means pulverising anything and everything, as in Grozny, Syria, Georgia, raining down total destruction in the attempt to cow the invaded populace into submission. By comparison Russian bombing in most of Ukraine (other than Mariupol) has been relatively restrained - relatively by Russian standards. They have also been unable to establish air dominance, and have lost a high number of aircraft since the beginning of the invasion, which makes air support of ground troops more challenging.
 
Upvote 0

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
That Russia is/was? Yes Russian forces have targeted soft civilian and some military posts for air strikes, but early on avoided damaging infrastructure they would need to use themselves for supply lines etc, railways and airstrips and so on. Putin’s original aim was to install a puppet regime, there was nothing to be gained by crippling Ukraine’s industry if the country would effectively become part of Russia. That has changed to some extent as that goal was not met. Plus Russia has a limited supply of the kind of smart munitions needed for precision strikes.

Well several claims of airstrikes were made in the early part of the conflict. The Mariupol Theatre and the Maternity Hospital had both been said to be airstrikes, or bombs dropped. But there are claims on some websites they were not airstrikes and may have been staged? i am not saying the following is necessarily reliable but it does question the media reports of an airstrike, and the news reports didn't mention Ukranian army using it for a base, which this patient says was what it was being used for.

New witness testimony about Mariupol maternity hospital ‘airstrike’ follows pattern of Ukrainian deceptions, media malpractice - The Grayzone
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well several claims of airstrikes were made in the early part of the conflict. The Mariupol Theatre and the Maternity Hospital had both been said to be airstrikes, or bombs dropped. But there are claims on some websites they were not airstrikes and may have been staged?

New witness testimony about Mariupol maternity hospital ‘airstrike’ follows pattern of Ukrainian deceptions, media malpractice - The Grayzone
You can take that seriously if you want. I’m guessing you’re not familiar with decades of Soviet disinformation, which this is a fine example of. You can take the Soviet out of the name, but you can’t take the Soviet out of Putin’s Russian octopus.

If you don’t want to learn about that, you should at least read ‘the media’ regularly and widely. You’ll find it isn’t one uniform narrative, and over time how to distinguish between the fake and the real may gradually seep in.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: cow451
Upvote 0

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Throughout the conflict, from the beginning until now.

You can take that seriously if you want. I’m guessing you’re not familiar with decades of Soviet disinformation, which this is a fine example of. You can take the Soviet out of the name, but you can’t take the Soviet out of Putin’s Russian octopus.

If you don’t want to learn about that, you should at least read ‘the media’ regularly and widely. You’ll find it isn’t one uniform narrative, and over time how to distinguish between the fake and the real may gradually seep in.

How do you know what is true or real here more than anyone else - as mentioned in another thread, people believe what they believe sometimes based on prejudices and because it fits their worldview.

How do you know its disinformation, and that what she says wasn't the case? Explain to me how you know? The Russians initially called her an actor, but then she broke her silence and told her story. How is that disinformation?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How do you know its disinformation, and that what she says isn't the case? The Russians initially called her an actor, and then she told her story. How is that disinformation? Why would Russia bomb a maternity hospital? I try not to begin with a negative western stereotype about Russia in my mind. That perhaps they might be like us and be trying to avoid colateral damage.

Stereotype : "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."

It’s not really possible to answer your questions without your having some wider understanding of the relevant issues. If you want to know about Russian military tactics, for example, you don’t need to imagine what they might do, you can study their campaigns in Chechnya, Georgia and Syria, for example, or the behaviour of Russian troops in Ukraine, Poland etc towards the end of WWII. Putin wasn’t really joking when he used a rape allusion to describe what Ukraine had coming. These aren’t stereotypes about Russians, they’re historical examples of the behaviour of Russian troops. The current Russian govt is the grandchild of the Russian state that inflicted the Holmodor on Ukraine. These are just facts, you don’t need to grasp for what might be the case when you can learn about the actual reality of it instead.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: cow451
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How do you know what is real here more than anyone else - as mentioned in another thread, people believe what they believe sometimes based on prejudices and because it fits their worldview.

That Soviet stuff has its own particular rhythm, like a kind of poetic meter. It goes backwards and forwards in a kind of imitation of someone weighing up a situation, but without actually doing that. The aim is to confuse, sow doubt, without including anything blatantly easy to disprove. The only antidote is knowledge. Learning about the history of a country, Russia in this case, takes time but without at least some appreciation of how the Kremlin operates you, or anyone else, is a leaf in the wind when to comes to this kind of thing, which is just how Putin likes it.

Brian D Taylor’s Code of Putinism is a good intro, but really the resources on this are endless. You can build up a reasonable understanding just by regularly reading the real media, the ones that have actual access to people in the know, rather than the cranks and randoms. However you do it, if you want answers to your questions reading widely and deeply is your only option .
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,084
1,302
✟593,863.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
That Soviet stuff has its own particular rhythm, like a kind of poetic meter. It goes backwards and forwards in a kind of imitation of someone weighing up a situation, but without actually doing that.

She doesn't know for sure herself thats why she is not in a position to absolutely say, she says staff said to her "there was no airstrike." Could she not just be trying to make sense of something that happened to her? I am not sure about her account, I have listend to it a time or two and cannot decide. You could be correct though.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0