SDA view "wicked who are dead are not raised at Second Coming"

[AdamjEdgar]

My understanding is that SDA church doctrine (there may be other denominations who share this belief) believes the wicked who are dead in the grave are not raised at the second coming of Christ in Revelation 1:7

"Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."


This does at first glance seems in contrast to the phrase "and every eye shall see him"!

I am still a bit of a fence sitter with this doctrine about the wicked at this point in time, so I have no immediate preferences one way or the other. It is simply a bit logical to my mind that surely Jesus would want ALL of the wicked to also see him coming in the clouds of heaven!

One of the arguments i have heard against my logical view that the wicked dead should see him coming in the clouds of heaven:

God does not torture people.
The idea of Him raising the wicked dead up out of the grave so they could then be seen just a few moments later calling to the rocks and the mountains to "fall on us and hide us" is a bit archaic and brutal.

Thoughts?

 

[BobRyan]

My understanding is that SDA church doctrine (there may be other denominations who share this belief) believes the wicked who are dead in the grave are not raised at the second coming of Christ in Revelation 1:7

"Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."


This does at first glance seems in contrast to the phrase "and every eye shall see him"!

I am still a bit of a fence sitter with this doctrine about the wicked at this point in time, so I have no immediate preferences one way or the other. It is simply a bit logical to my mind that surely Jesus would want ALL of the wicked to also see him coming in the clouds of heaven!

One of the arguments i have heard against my logical view that the wicked dead should see him coming in the clouds of heaven:

God does not torture people.
The idea of Him raising the wicked dead up out of the grave so they could then be seen just a few moments later calling to the rocks and the mountains to "fall on us and hide us" is a bit archaic and brutal.

Thoughts?

No doubt it is a time of weeping and wailing for the living wicked at the 2nd coming - and you can see this in Rev 9 - at the sixth seal

Rev 6:
12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the eminent people, and the commanders and the wealthy and the strong, and every slave and free person hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the sight of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

So then in your suggested scenario all the wicked would be raised for this... then killed at the 2nd coming... then raised again in Rev 20 after the millennium - see the judgment - and have everything explained to them... then killed again.

So in that first resurrection at the 2nd coming - you would have the wicked of all ages in all lands (many of whom never even heard of God the Son or knew that He was incarnate as Jesus) - seeing an event that they cannot explain - then killed... then 1000 years later have it explained to them... then killed again?

=========================

It is undeniable that in the Rev 21/Rev 20 descending of the Holy City - that Jesus' coming would be viewed by all mankind of all history whether saints or wicked.

So then of that post-mill event: This statement could be said.
"Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye of every human that ever lived in all of time shall see him,"

However the one we actually have in the Bible - appears to focus not on every eye of every human that ever lived - but every eye of every human alive at the coming of Christ:
Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see him, Rev 1:7

 

[BobRyan]

Paul said he wanted to "attain to the resurrection from the dead" in Phil 3.

8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them mere rubbish, so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 if somehow I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

The only makes sense if either

1. The wicked are never resurrected - only the saints are
2. OR - there is a specific resurrection of saints, not of the wicked - and Paul means he wants to attain to that specific resurrection.

 

[Freth]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 describes the second coming. The wicked are not mentioned; possibly because this is meant to be a comfort, as per verse 18.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
​

Revelation 20:4-6 describes the first resurrection (at the second coming). Blue pertaining to those of the first resurrection, red pertaining to those who are not of the first resurrection.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My understanding is that SDA church doctrine (there may be other denominations who share this belief) believes the wicked who are dead in the grave are not raised at the second coming of Christ in Revelation 1:7

"Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."


This does at first glance seems in contrast to the phrase "and every eye shall see him"!

I am still a bit of a fence sitter with this doctrine about the wicked at this point in time, so I have no immediate preferences one way or the other. It is simply a bit logical to my mind that surely Jesus would want ALL of the wicked to also see him coming in the clouds of heaven!

One of the arguments i have heard against my logical view that the wicked dead should see him coming in the clouds of heaven:

God does not torture people.
The idea of Him raising the wicked dead up out of the grave so they could then be seen just a few moments later calling to the rocks and the mountains to "fall on us and hide us" is a bit archaic and brutal.

Thoughts?

Daniel 12:2 makes it quite clear:
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So the notion that those who reject Christ are not raised from the dead at the second coming is a contradiction of Scripture and therefore nonsense.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

​

Revelation 20:4-6 describes the first resurrection (at the second coming).

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

Yes I have read the verses in Rev 20:4-6. I am thinking the key to understanding this passage:

1. first death = wicked who are alive at second coming,

2.Second death is applicable to all wicked, but not to righteous. The righteous do not suffer a second death.

 

[Freth]

Daniel 12:2 makes it quite clear:
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So the notion that those who reject Christ are not raised from the dead at the second coming is a contradiction of Scripture and therefore nonsense.

While the verse is true, that some will awake to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt, it doesn't mention that it will happen at the same time. The verse has no time reference, therefore you can't say that it means both will happen at the second coming. Especially when Revelation 20:5 tells us, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

 

[Freth]

Yes I have read the verses in Rev 20:4-6. I am thinking the key to understanding this passage:

1. first death = wicked who are alive at second coming,

2.Second death is applicable to all wicked, but not to righteous. The righteous do not suffer a second death.

I agree, but I would also extend the definition of the first death as dying and going to the grave. Anyone who dies before the second coming is experiencing the first death. The wicked who die at the second coming also experience that first death, because all go to the grave and are awaiting resurrection, whether unto eternal life or unto the second death. The exception being those who are alive and gathered up at the second coming; they do not see the first death, nor the second death.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I agree, but I would also extend the definition of the first death as dying and going to the grave. Anyone who dies before the second coming is experiencing the first death. The wicked who die at the second coming also experience that first death, because all go to the grave and are awaiting resurrection, whether unto eternal life or unto the second death. The exception being those who are alive and gathered up at the second coming; they do not see the first death, nor the second death.

Yes agreed. I accidently omitted this point about the first death including wicked in the gravd...an inadvertant oversight. My bad.

 

[Freth]

Yes agreed. I accidently omitted this point about the first death including wicked in the gravd...an inadvertant oversight. My bad.

No worries. I wasn't correcting you at all, I was just adding to what you had already said. I assumed you agreed already, but wanted to make sure it was added.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

My understanding is that SDA church doctrine (there may be other denominations who share this belief) believes the wicked who are dead in the grave are not raised at the second coming of Christ in Revelation 1:7

"Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."


This does at first glance seems in contrast to the phrase "and every eye shall see him"!

I am still a bit of a fence sitter with this doctrine about the wicked at this point in time, so I have no immediate preferences one way or the other. It is simply a bit logical to my mind that surely Jesus would want ALL of the wicked to also see him coming in the clouds of heaven!

One of the arguments i have heard against my logical view that the wicked dead should see him coming in the clouds of heaven:

God does not torture people.
The idea of Him raising the wicked dead up out of the grave so they could then be seen just a few moments later calling to the rocks and the mountains to "fall on us and hide us" is a bit archaic and brutal.

Thoughts?

If I may just try to give one thing to think about. There is a first death and a second death. Now if the wicked are have seen the first death are resurrected at the second coming, then are slain, that's another death. Then at the White throne judgement they are resurrected again and again destroyed, that's #3. So it doesn't exactly add up.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

If I may just try to give one thing to think about. There is a first death and a second death. Now if the wicked are have seen the first death are resurrected at the second coming, then are slain, that's another death. Then at the White throne judgement they are resurrected again and again destroyed, that's #3. So it doesn't exactly add up.

Very good point...and that is certainly another very logical one I hadn't thought of.
We are reminded number of times about first and second deaths.
Even in baptism, we die to the old life and are ressurected into the new...so even in the conversion/baptism metaphor (hope this is an appropriate descriptor), the person being therefore saved, only dies once!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

My understanding is that SDA church doctrine (there may be other denominations who share this belief) believes the wicked who are dead in the grave are not raised at the second coming of Christ in Revelation 1:7

"Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."


This does at first glance seems in contrast to the phrase "and every eye shall see him"!

I am still a bit of a fence sitter with this doctrine about the wicked at this point in time, so I have no immediate preferences one way or the other. It is simply a bit logical to my mind that surely Jesus would want ALL of the wicked to also see him coming in the clouds of heaven!

One of the arguments i have heard against my logical view that the wicked dead should see him coming in the clouds of heaven:

God does not torture people.
The idea of Him raising the wicked dead up out of the grave so they could then be seen just a few moments later calling to the rocks and the mountains to "fall on us and hide us" is a bit archaic and brutal.

Thoughts?

Matthew 25
31 “The Son of Man will come again with divine greatness, and all his angels will come with him. He will sit as king on his great and glorious throne. 32 All the people of the world will be gathered before him. Then he will separate everyone into two groups. It will be like a shepherd separating his sheep from his goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the king will say to the godly people on his right, ‘Come, my Father has great blessings for you. The kingdom he promised is now yours. It has been prepared for you since the world was made. 35 It is yours because when I was hungry, you gave me food to eat. When I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink. When I had no place to stay, you welcomed me into your home. 36 When I was without clothes, you gave me something to wear. When I was sick, you cared for me. When I was in prison, you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the godly people will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you food? When did we see you thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you with no place to stay and welcome you into our home? When did we see you without clothes and give you something to wear? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and care for you?’

40 “Then the king will answer, ‘The truth is, anything you did for any of my people here, you also did for me.’

41 “Then the king will say to the evil people on his left, ‘Get away from me. God has already decided that you will be punished. Go into the fire that burns forever—the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 You must go away because when I was hungry, you gave me nothing to eat. When I was thirsty, you gave me nothing to drink. 43 When I had no place to stay, you did not welcome me into your home. When I was without clothes, you gave me nothing to wear. When I was sick and in prison, you did not care for me.’

44 “Then those people will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty? When did we see you without a place to stay? Or when did we see you without clothes or sick or in prison? When did we see any of this and not help you?’

45 “The king will answer, ‘The truth is, anything you refused to do for any of my people here, you refused to do for me.’

46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

"
What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection?

ANSWER


Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23)."
What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection? | GotQuestions.org

 

[BobRyan]

Very good point...and that is certainly another very logical one I hadn't thought of.
We are reminded number of times about first and second deaths.
Even in baptism, we die to the old life and are ressurected into the new...so even in the conversion/baptism metaphor (hope this is an appropriate descriptor), the person being therefore saved, only dies once!

When we speak of the 2nd death - it is only the wicked that die the second death in Rev 20 - after the millennium of a literal 1000 years.

This means that the "first death" would be physical death in this life.

Heb 9 says "it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgment". And that is true for both saints and the wicked. So death in all those examples is - real physical death. Solomon laments a number of times - the fact that both saints and the wicked die. Clearly that is true of the first death.

But in Ezek 18 you see the case where the saints never die and the wicked all die. This is only true in the case of the second death.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Agreed except your last two examples happen at the same moment in time as Matt 24:29-36 point out.

 

[SuperCow]

If I may just try to give one thing to think about. There is a first death and a second death. Now if the wicked are have seen the first death are resurrected at the second coming, then are slain, that's another death. Then at the White throne judgement they are resurrected again and again destroyed, that's #3. So it doesn't exactly add up.

I'm not completely clear about SDA theology, but I think you are misinterpreting the sequence of events.

First death - Everyone from Adam to now. I don't think anyone disputes this. This includes righteous people and unrighteous people.

In Acts 24:15, Paul says there will be a resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous people. The question is why? And does this mean there is no consequence for sin, or is the resurrection for a meaningless trial that is already settled?

First of all, Paul doesn't say "every" unrighteous person, only that x number of unrighteous people will be resurrected. Jesus says in Matthew 12:31,32 that any kind of sin "can" be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

You can logically come to a conclusion that someone like Adolf Hitler blasphemed against the Holy Spirit (though only God can answer this), but some poor soldier who died in the Assyrian king Sennacherib's army against king Hezekiah didn't know any better.

Therefore, I think it makes the most sense that someone who sins to defy God or someone who turns another against God is in a different category than someone who sins who never knew God or never believed in God. Then there's the final category of John 11:26 of people who will never die if they believe in Jesus. (Presumably at Armageddon; however, that is the KJV, and the NIV changes "lives and believes in me" to "lives by believing in me", which changes the context to mean the people who died and were resurrected.)

Anyway, the sequence of events:

1.) People die.
2.) Jesus sacrifices himself for mankind, and opens the possibility for resurrection.
X.) Different sects dispute the timing of this resurrection, whether it is after Jesus death, or after Armageddon, or in a few cases after the 1000 year reign.
3.) Christianity spreads to the world. (Not everyone believes in it, but almost everyone has heard about it to date.)
4.) The world falls into the final tribulation.
5.) Armageddon. All the wicked living at this time die. Only righteous survive.
(Lots of disagreement after this point in time. Some believe they are raptured here and experience their eternal bliss in heaven. Some believe we are taken to a new earth. Some believe that mankind is resurrected and judged here.)
6.) Christ's 1000 year reign.
(Now the parts in Revelation which tend to conflict with some ideas of the end times.)
7.) After the 1000 years are ended according to Revelation 20:7 Satan is loosed again for a while, and Satan again deceives the nations.
8.) The the great white throne judgement happens.

How many deaths? Up to #5, everyone's died only once, and those who live through Armageddon haven't died yet. Presumably, nobody dies during #6, but in 1000 years many children born who never experienced death could be around. These could be deceived. Also, according to Revelation 20:5 those not martyred are resurrected after the 1000 years. (If you've been dead for 3000 years already, what's another 1000 years right?)

So when we get the the final great white throne judgement, there's only been technically one death for any given person.

 

[BobRyan]

If I may just try to give one thing to think about. There is a first death and a second death. Now if the wicked are have seen the first death are resurrected at the second coming, then are slain, that's another death. Then at the White throne judgement they are resurrected again and again destroyed, that's #3. So it doesn't exactly add up.

First death - the one when people die of whatever causes at the end of this life.
Second death - the one at the end of the 1000 year millennium in Rev 20. Only the wicked die the second death.

A wicked person that happens to still be alive at the second coming - will be killed at that time - but still that is just the "first death" for him/her.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not completely clear about SDA theology, but I think you are misinterpreting the sequence of events.

First death - Everyone from Adam to now. I don't think anyone disputes this. This includes righteous people and unrighteous people.

In Acts 24:15, Paul says there will be a resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous people. The question is why? And does this mean there is no consequence for sin, or is the resurrection for a meaningless trial that is already settled?

First of all, Paul doesn't say "every" unrighteous person, only that x number of unrighteous people will be resurrected. Jesus says in Matthew 12:31,32 that any kind of sin "can" be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

You can logically come to a conclusion that someone like Adolf Hitler blasphemed against the Holy Spirit (though only God can answer this), but some poor soldier who died in the Assyrian king Sennacherib's army against king Hezekiah didn't know any better.

Therefore, I think it makes the most sense that someone who sins to defy God or someone who turns another against God is in a different category than someone who sins who never knew God or never believed in God. Then there's the final category of John 11:26 of people who will never die if they believe in Jesus. (Presumably at Armageddon; however, that is the KJV, and the NIV changes "lives and believes in me" to "lives by believing in me", which changes the context to mean the people who died and were resurrected.)

Anyway, the sequence of events:

1.) People die.
2.) Jesus sacrifices himself for mankind, and opens the possibility for resurrection.
X.) Different sects dispute the timing of this resurrection, whether it is after Jesus death, or after Armageddon, or in a few cases after the 1000 year reign.
3.) Christianity spreads to the world. (Not everyone believes in it, but almost everyone has heard about it to date.)
4.) The world falls into the final tribulation.
5.) Armageddon. All the wicked living at this time die. Only righteous survive.
(Lots of disagreement after this point in time. Some believe they are raptured here and experience their eternal bliss in heaven. Some believe we are taken to a new earth. Some believe that mankind is resurrected and judged here.)
6.) Christ's 1000 year reign.
(Now the parts in Revelation which tend to conflict with some ideas of the end times.)
7.) After the 1000 years are ended according to Revelation 20:7 Satan is loosed again for a while, and Satan again deceives the nations.
8.) The the great white throne judgement happens.

How many deaths? Up to #5, everyone's died only once, and those who live through Armageddon haven't died yet. Presumably, nobody dies during #6, but in 1000 years many children born who never experienced death could be around. These could be deceived. Also, according to Revelation 20:5 those not martyred are resurrected after the 1000 years. (If you've been dead for 3000 years already, what's another 1000 years right?)

So when we get the the final great white throne judgement, there's only been technically one death for any given person.

I agree with a lot of what you say there - but want to focus on clarifying one point - regarding those who "never heard the name of Christ" from Gen - to - Rev.

Jesus is the only way to heaven - but what one given man knows does not limit what God knows or what God can do.

Rom 2:13-16 deals with the case of those who have no access to the knowledge that is found in the Word of God - at all..

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.