SDA and rebirth/regeneration

[stenerson]

I'm curious as to the SDA doctrine on regeneration/rebirth? Most Protestants believe in regeneration as a supernatural act of God wherein we are " delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son." That no one can enter or see (understand, value appreciate) the kingdom of God or salvation unless the Spirit breaths new life into him. We believe that we are given the Holy Spirit as an earnest, a guarantee, a surety, a down payment until the 2nd coming.
My impression from conversations with SDA folks, (there were many in the town I grew up in) is that rebirth was something they did and maintained by their works.

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

I'm curious as to the SDA doctrine on regeneration/rebirth? Most Protestants believe in regeneration as a supernatural act of God wherein we are " delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son." That no one can enter or see (understand, value appreciate) the kingdom of God or salvation unless the Spirit breaths new life into him. We believe that we are given the Holy Spirit as an earnest, a guarantee, a surety, a down payment until the 2nd coming.
My impression from conversations with SDA folks, (there were many in the town I grew up in) is that rebirth was something they did and maintained by their works.

We go by thus saith the Lord:

See the conversation of Jesus with Nicodemus, in John 3, where it is written:

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 3:11

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: John 3:14

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:17

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:20

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:21

Peter confirms:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23

Paul:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Romans 6:1

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Roians 6:2

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Roamns 6:5

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:6

For he that is dead is freed from sin. Romans 6:7

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Romans 6:8

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Romans 6:10

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:11

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Romans 6:12

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Romans 6:13

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Romans 6:15

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Romans 6:17

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:18

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. Romans 6:19

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. Romans 6:20

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. Romans 6:21

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6:22

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:9

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:26

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Galatians 4:29

From James:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

John:

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 John 2:29

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 1 John 4:7

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 1 John 5:1

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:4

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

I hope that these texts answer your question, about where we as Seventh-day Adventists stand.

 

[stenerson]

Not really. You quoted a lot of scripture, which is good. But from speaking to Adventist they seem to deny the supernatural and the eternal nature of rebirth, regeneration. Many told me it's improper for a Christian to believe or say that he is saved. I've heard this 1st hand from SDA people. When defining how they interpret passages regarding salvation they seem to give me the same argument that Roman Catholics give regarding how to get save and how to "stay saved."

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Not really. You quoted a lot of scripture, which is good. But from speaking to Adventist they seem to deny the supernatural and the eternal nature of rebirth, regeneration. Many told me it's improper for a Christian to believe or say that he is saved. I've heard this 1st hand from SDA people. When defining how they interpret passages regarding salvation they seem to give me the same argument that Roman Catholics give regarding how to get save and how to "stay saved."

I am sorry that the scriptures, even as said, "a lot of" that were, provided are "not really" helpful in answering your questions as to where the Seventh-day Adventist stands in regards to your question. If these are not accepted in answer to your question, then I cannot give any further answer. Isaiah 8:20 - "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.", and thus it was given as it is written, even in the mouth of two or three, and even more witnesses.

You are presently speaking to a Seventh-day Adventist, and I have provided what the Scripture declares, and what I and we also believe, teach and live according to.

In regards to the comments about salvation, see again the first response, and see also:

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10:22

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mathew 24:13

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:9

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21 [see also Genesis 4:26]

Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. Acts 11:14

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:9

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Romans 8:24

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Romans 9:27

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13 [see also Acts 2:21; Genesis 4:26; 2 Samuel 22:4; Psalms 18:3; Isaiah 30:15; Jeremiah 4:14]

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:8

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:2

For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 2 Corinthians 2:15

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:9

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Timothy 1:9

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5

In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. Jeremiah 33:16

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:18

Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise. Jeremiah 17:14

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:6

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:22

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:10

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. Romans 13:11

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

etc, etc.

See also, further this belief, this faith:

KJV Search Results for "salvation"

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and so I can definitively declare that, No, the Seventh-day Adventist faith in regards to salvation is not as the Roman faith, the two being totally incompatible, but is the Scriptural faith once delivered to the saints.

You have a misunderstanding in regards to 'interpretation'. The Word of God discerns us - Hebrews 4:12, therefore see Isaiah 8:20; Isaiah 28:10; 2 Peter 1:20; Psalms 25:5; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-11; etc.

I hope that these scriptures help answer your question, in regards to the Seventh-day Adventist position, for after all you were not seeking man's opinion, but rather the answer as it is written in the Word of God, yes?

 

[stenerson]

.

I hope that these scriptures help answer your question, in regards tot he Seventh-day Adventist position, for after all you were not seeking man's opinion, but rather the answer asx it is written in the Word of God, yes?

Well, heck anyone can cut and paste half the bible and say that's what we believe, but it's not much of an answer . I'm interested in SDA interpretation, especially concerning the points I bought up. But wasn't looking for an argument or debate, was simply curious.
Thanks anyway.

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Well, heck anyone can cut and paste half the bible and say that's what we believe, but it's not much of an answer . I'm interested in SDA interpretation, especially concerning the points I bought up. But wasn't looking for an argument or debate, was simply curious.
Thanks anyway.

Please read the post again, as it contains these words, "You have a misunderstanding in regards to 'interpretation'. The Word of God discerns us - Hebrews 4:12, therefore see Isaiah 8:20; Isaiah 28:10; 2 Peter 1:20; Psalms 25:5; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-11; etc."

The questions raised were answered in kind by the Scriptures themselves. They, as written, are what we believe.

You may indeed see some post "half the bible", but that is not what was here done. Very specific texts related to your query were cited.

Additionally, even if some, which are not Seventh-day Adventist, post "half the bible" in response and they think it answer to the truth, as it is written, it may be readily shown they have misunderstanding of what is written, because they do not have the pattern itself, they rejecting it.

Go with me to the Bible, as I would like to show you, where most fail at this topic of salvation, they not having understanding of that which was given before, as it is written "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Corinthians 10:11, for they had the same gospel preached unto them, as unto us, but before you do open your Bible with me, please take some time to pray.

If the types/shadows/symbols and instructions given in the foundation of the Bible [OT] are not clearly understood, even by the light of the New Testament, then the doctrine of salvation, how it occurs, etc will not be properly understood at all.

Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God? Psalms 77:13

For notice Paul:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrew 5:9

Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec Hebrews 5:10

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. Hebrews 5:11

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. Hebrews 5:12

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. Hebrews 5:13

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:14

For he, Paul, speaking of the types gone before, given for our instruction:

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Hebrews 8:5

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

[...] But wasn't looking for an argument or debate, was simply curious.
Thanks anyway.

Well, the answer is in the Sanctuary itself, and if you still would like to look at this subject, we can, no debate or argument required. Consider the last post before we continue, when you are ready - http://www.christianforums.com/t7790334/#post64604133

 

[stenerson]

Thank you for the responses. I lived in a town with many SDA, (and even worked in a hospital owned by them). So I was going from my experience in speaking to them. For example when I would speak concerning justification by faith alone, they seemed to mix up justification with sanctification and would quote James passages to prove that justification is from a combination of faith and works. The exact argument I get from Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons.
Thanks again for the responses.

 

[OldStudent]

I'm curious as to the SDA doctrine on regeneration/rebirth? Most Protestants believe in regeneration as a supernatural act of God wherein we are " delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son." That no one can enter or see (understand, value appreciate) the kingdom of God or salvation unless the Spirit breaths new life into him.

Agreed. Born again – from above. Jn 3

We believe that we are given the Holy Spirit as an earnest, a guarantee, a surety, a down payment until the 2nd coming.

I am puzzled by what is meant by that clause.

My impression from conversations with SDA folks, (there were many in the town I grew up in) is that rebirth was something they did and maintained by their works.

How we express our faith and how it works can be quite individual. I consider the message you have received to be unfortunate. See if this fits together better. We have no choice in the first birth. But since it has happened we are provided choices and opportunities. The Holy Spirit is key to enlightening us to the choices and opportunities God provides us and desires for us. He nurtures our hopes and desires for life. He shows us how we are broken, helpless, hopeless without God planting within us a new heart and resolving our past record. When we recognize and accept His proposal the change is so drastic Jesus applies the term we are born again. It is not something we “do” as such. We receive it. God then is free to work in us and through us. Yes, "supernatural" sure fits here. Since it changes our nature, it changes how we think, it changes our sense of purpose, hence it changes the things we do. The things we do are expression of who we are.

 

[OldStudent]

Thank you for the responses. I lived in a town with many SDA, (and even worked in a hospital owned by them). So I was going from my experience in speaking to them. For example when I would speak concerning justification by faith alone, they seemed to mix up justification with sanctification and would quote James passages to prove that justification is from a combination of faith and works. The exact argument I get from Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons.
Thanks again for the responses.

I am inclined to think Satan is quite content with a justification only gospel. Justification is a necessary starting place. Until our past record is cleared (justified) the rest is a moot point. Faith is the necessary requisite for this to be effective. However, with justification only no transformation is expected or attempted. Until there is transformation of nature toward the likeness of God in us (sanctification) there is really nothing happening to us - no salvation rendered. We must have faith with this too to allow God to so work in us.
"...thou shalt call his name Jesus for He shall save his people FROM their sins." Justification saves us from our record of sin. Sanctifcation saves from our nature of sin. When all of that is accomplished THEN we are saved FROM our sins both in record and in nature (as evidencted in the things we do).

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Thank you for the responses. I lived in a town with many SDA, (and even worked in a hospital owned by them). So I was going from my experience in speaking to them. For example when I would speak concerning justification by faith alone, they seemed to mix up justification with sanctification [...]
Thanks again for the responses.

Seems the topic has shifted ever so slightly from the original ["I'm curious as to the SDA doctrine on regeneration/rebirth? [...]"], since we are now upon justification, sanctification.

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Isaiah 45:25

Being 'born again', Justification, Sanctification and the rest cannot be understood unless that which was given before, in the OT, even in the Sanctuary types, be understood.

In fact, we can also consider this passage, in regards to God Himself:

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:4, which is quoting the Psalms 51:4

Speaking of Justification as written of the NT, being founded upon the OT, and how it comes, we may readily read:

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Romans 3:24

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:1

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:9

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Galatians 3:11

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

The True Faith works by Love, thus Paul, James and the whole of scripture agree. The Faith of Jesus is no mere mental ascent. For Faith without works is dead - that is to say it is not living, not alive, it is a corpse.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:17

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

James previously asked the question:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

The silent answer that James gives, is 'No, such faith, as that, cannot save him."

A person may say that they are 'justified' by such a faith, as that, but they are in error.

James is quite specific about this kind of faith:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 2:19

Devils have no sanctification or justification, why? Read again James {Iacobos; Jacob}

Notice, James, in chapter 2, says Justified, not Sanctified, and notice the OT type:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2:22

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

Again, see the sanctuary service itself, and perhaps you might point us to the where James used the words sanctified, sanctifying or sanctification in James chapter 2?

However, back to the original topic, being born again, see also James while we are in these scriptures:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18

 

[stenerson]

Greetings Old Student.

Agreed. Born again – from above. Jn 3



I am puzzled by what is meant by that clause.

Earnest, guarentee, pledge, down payment, surety depending on what bible version one uses is used to describe the sealing of believers by giving of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of our bodies.

How we express our faith and how it works can be quite individual. I consider the message you have received to be unfortunate. See if this fits together better. We have no choice in the first birth. But since it has happened we are provided choices and opportunities. The Holy Spirit is key to enlightening us to the choices and opportunities God provides us and desires for us. He nurtures our hopes and desires for life. He shows us how we are broken, helpless, hopeless without God planting within us a new heart and resolving our past record. When we recognize and accept His proposal the change is so drastic Jesus applies the term we are born again. It is not something we “do” as such. We receive it. God then is free to work in us and through us. Yes, "supernatural" sure fits here. Since it changes our nature, it changes how we think, it changes our sense of purpose, hence it changes the things we do. The things we do are expression of who we are.

Well said, for the most part. But regarding being born again or born from above it is compared in scripture to our 1st birth in that we don't have a choice in that either. "who were born not of the blood, nor of the will of man , but of God. " But that's another issue which could side track us. But us the moment we truly believe we are justified and declared righteous before we do even one good work. And yes, we are a new creation and are given a new nature and the process of sanctification begins.

 

[stenerson]

I am inclined to think Satan is quite content with a justification only gospel. Justification is a necessary starting place. Until our past record is cleared (justified) the rest is a moot point. Faith is the necessary requisite for this to be effective. However, with justification only no transformation is expected or attempted.

I'm sensing a lot of confusion here concerning justification. Paul dedicates lots of effort and ink to make clear that we are justified by faith alone apart from any works of the law. Justification is our standing before God, we are seen in Christ, Christ has satisfied the law perfectly, living a sinless life on our behalf and atoning for our sins.

Until there is transformation of nature toward the likeness of God in us (sanctification) there is really nothing happening to us - no salvation rendered.

Okay, I'm starting to understand your position. But again, we are mixing up justification (a one time act when we come to faith) and sanctification (the lifetime work of the Holy Spirit that is given to us). Two completely different subjects. Is it important not to confuse them? You bet it is. If you do then you are making the same mistake in doctrine that the Roman church and the cults commit. This was at the heart of the reformation.
The reformation and protestantism does not downplay the importance of Holiness and good works, but it must be put in it's proper context.

We must have faith with this too to allow God to so work in us.
"...thou shalt call his name Jesus for He shall save his people FROM their sins." Justification saves us from our record of sin. Sanctifcation saves from our nature of sin. When all of that is accomplished THEN we are saved FROM our sins both in record and in nature (as evidencted in the things we do).

Yes we are justified (declared righteous, seen in Christ). We are given a new nature and become sons of God, "heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ."

oops, sorry, I was really simply interested in what you believed and didn't want to make it a debate. Sorry.

 

[OldStudent]

This may stray a bit from your OP. There is often a lingering question, "What if our natures aren't 'perfect' or 'perfected' before our death or Jesus comes?" While justification covers our past record it must also cover our defects that haven't yet been exposed to our knowledge. Here is a key point. As long as we continue in our relationship with God we are covered. Implicit in continuing we continue to grow and develop. We continue to give permission for God to work His will in us and through us. When God raises us He has permission to complete the work in that instant. In addition, in that instant we are beyond all desire for anything unrighteous as the fallen, broken aspect of our nature is erased. There is no need for purgatory or any other intermediate clean up.

I choke on the once-saved-always-saved idea. That removes opportunity to choose. The O/one who removes choice becomes a dispicable tyrant. Love and freedom in the nature of God's love no longer exists. Our salvation is always sure unless we determine to walk away. That does not happen in a opps, slip, or fall down event. But in a fall where we say, "Don't bother me. I'm not coming back," we are allowed to stay down.

You asked a huge and key question that is hard to keep in short form. Such short form is always incomplete but is very useful setting a framework or outline.

I hope through it all you got the jist of what you were looking for.

 

[stenerson]

Yes, I get the big picture as to SDA doctrine now.. For the most part they are the same objections to the Reformation doctrines of grace that I get in my discussions with Roman Catholics. The same basic views on what justification means and on the uncertainty of salvation to those that truly believe and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Thanks for the input.

 

[OldStudent]

Greetings Old Student.
Earnest, guarentee, pledge, down payment, surety depending on what bible version one uses is used to describe the sealing of believers by giving of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of our bodies.

Would you provide example reference(s) to the passages from which you draw these ideas?

 

[OldStudent]

Okay, I'm starting to understand your position. But again, we are mixing up justification (a one time act when we come to faith) and sanctification (the lifetime work of the Holy Spirit that is given to us). Two completely different subjects. Is it important not to confuse them? You bet it is. If you do then you are making the same mistake in doctrine that the Roman church and the cults commit. This was at the heart of the reformation.
The reformation and protestantism does not downplay the importance of Holiness and good works, but it must be put in it's proper context.

I'm not so sure justification is a one time event. If I do subsequently slip, fail, fall short that matter must be cleared - justified. Justification and forgiveness are closely associated. With that taken care of sanctification can continue.

I would hesitate to say justification and sanctification are completely different subjects. The first clears the rubbish out of the cup so good stuff can be put in it. It is important to understand the purpose and role of each.

Such a position does not set aside grace. It all flows out of God's grace. As we come to understand justification, forgiveness, sanctification we come to understand key aspects of how, under grace, God provides us salvation.

oops, sorry, I was really simply interested in what you believed and didn't want to make it a debate. Sorry.

It is my hope that you consider what has just transpired as a conversation - not a pushy debate. I would advise caution in taking what I have said as "the position of the SDA church" not being a theologian recognized by the church. I think what you have heard from me is agreeable with the teaching of the church. It is my expression of my understanding of how things fit together. The church has provided considerable guidance toward this end.

Thanks for puting up the question for discussion.

 

[stenerson]

Would you provide example reference(s) to the passages from which you draw these ideas?

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

"Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit" (2 Cor. 5:5)

"After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" Eph. 1:13, 14

Earnest, guarantee, down payment, surety depending on what version you use. They all mean the same thing, that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe, are born again as proof and sign of our adoption as sons.
Here's a good explanation of the classical, Reformed Protestant view.
The Holy Spirit- Chapter 29. The Spirit Confirming

 

[stenerson]

I'm not so sure justification is a one time event. If I do subsequently slip, fail, fall short that matter must be cleared - justified. Justification and forgiveness are closely associated. With that taken care of sanctification can continue.

It surely is a one time event. That was one of the chief contentions between Rome and the Reformers, Rome held basically the same view which your church holds concerning justification.
Justification is pronounced upon those that come to saving faith, belief in the Son of God. It is not to be confused, as the Romanist and cults do with the ongoing work of sanctification (a lifelong process with ups and downs, a process which God promises to finish for true believers).

I would hesitate to say justification and sanctification are completely different subjects. The first clears the rubbish out of the cup so good stuff can be put in it. It is important to understand the purpose and role of each.

Justification is a legal term and refers to the verdict pronounced by the judge. This was a scandalous concept to the Jew. The concept that God would declare a dirty, rotten, fallen sinner righteous even before he does one good work. Of course it doesn't end there, "those whom He justifies He glorifies." In other words sanctification (what comes between justification and glorification is assumed). Clearing the rubbish out is a lifetime process for those that have been justified, reborn, given a new nature and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

Such a position does not set aside grace. It all flows out of God's grace. As we come to understand justification, forgiveness, sanctification we come to understand key aspects of how, under grace, God provides us salvation.

Grace is set aside if the terms justification, sanctification are misunderstood or confused, as Popery did and many cults that have strayed from the basic principles of the Protestant Reformation. God justifies the ungodly that believe, He can do this and still be just. That was the scandal that offended the Jews, Rome and others that deny the biblically correct meaning of justification. He can justify His elect, and no one can dare lay a charge against them. Why? Because Christ has propitiated their sins, He has taken upon Himself the wrath and judgement of God and Has lived a perfect, Holy life for them. He ever lives to make intercession for them. And as their Shepherd, He leads them (through the Holy Spirit that He has sent) to the end.

It is my hope that you consider what has just transpired as a conversation - not a pushy debate. I would advise caution in taking what I have said as "the position of the SDA church" not being a theologian recognized by the church. I think what you have heard from me is agreeable with the teaching of the church. It is my expression of my understanding of how things fit together. The church has provided considerable guidance toward this end.

Thanks for puting up the question for discussion.

No problem, I appreciate your input and by no means take this as a pushy debate.