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Featured Scriptures on eternal security.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by justbyfaith, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    First of all, let me say that we need to heed the warnings of scripture against falling away if we are going to be recipients of the promises that I am going to speak of. The fear of the Lord is a sustaining factor in our lives and is the primary safeguard against falling away.

    Now please look up 2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, and Romans 4:20-22.

    These scriptures formulate the basis for my proposition that we can lay hold of promises on eternal security if we are good students of the Bible and also do not reject verses that may appear to teach the opposite; but which instead create within us the motivation to stay faithful and are therefore the reason within us that we do not depart from the Lord. I say to you that as long as we have the fear of the Lord, we shall not depart from Him (Jeremiah 32:38-40).

    So the verses on eternal security are as follows:

    John 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

    John 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    John 10:27-30, My sheep hear my voise, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

    Hebrews 13:5-6, Let your conversation be without covetousness: and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee, So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

    There are more verses than just these on the subject that you may find at your leisure in regular Bible reading times. But these are for starters to help you in your process of understanding your security in Christ so that you might have a helmet securely fastened to your head when going into battle.

    I think I will bring up one more:

    1 John 5:13, These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  2. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    The word "eternal" in the term "Eternal Security" means you are "eternally secure" suggesting that nothing you do will change that "eternally secure" state. So it's not "Eternal Security" if one has the potential to depart from God. It would be "Conditional Security" because salvation is conditioned upon your choice to choose to follow God (Whereby God can then keep you and protect you as you choose to follow Him). Most who believe in the term "Eternal Security" are simply saying that once you have been saved, you are always saved (i.e. OSAS - "Once Saved Always Saved"). They believe that once you chose to exercise faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are saved by that one choice of faith. Some believe you can sin and still be saved and others believe that you are regenerated to a point beyond your free will to live holy for God so as to satisfy the requirements that you will not treat God's grace as a license for immorality.

    However, the very message itself of saying you are forever saved by having a belief in Jesus + nothing else can easily lead people to think the wrong way about God's grace (Whereby they can potentially turn God's grace into a license for immorality). The gospel message itself has to leave no room for us to think we can sin and still be saved (Which is what the Bible teaches; For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world - Titus 2:11-12).

    So "Salvation" is more than just believing in the person of Jesus, we have to believe in everything Jesus taught (Which includes many commands in the New Testament) that come from Himself and His followers. If we are not following those commands in the fear of the Lord, then Jesus is not really our Lord. For Jesus says, why do you call me, Lord, Lord and do not what I say?

    Scripture says, "Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." (Proverbs 3:7).
     
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Like a moth to flame.

    Hi @Jason0047,

    If you want to fight against the concept of eternal security in scripture, you need to refute the passages that were given and also deal with the understanding that I am not saying that we should ignore the warnings against falling away, but that these warnings are a safeguard that actually secures the eternal security of the believer in Christ per Jeremiah 32:38-40.

    I am preaching eternal security here as a helmet for the one who truly believes and not as a grace that turns into lasciviousness.

    Paul the apostle's preaching of grace may have easily been mistaken to be grace as a license for sinning in Romans 4 and Romans 5. Those passages alone could be easily interpreted to be grace as a license to sin. However, Paul clarified his message by writing Romans chapters 6-8.

    God is a God who justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5). He gives us the identity of righteousness and we retain this identity even when we blow it. However, when we begin to realize our new identity in Christ, we will begin to live like we are who the Lord says we are (1 John 3:7).

    We are forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ; and works have nothing to do with it. Continued personal holiness also has nothing to do with it. However because we are forgiven, personal holiness and works follow.

    If personal holiness and works do not follow but we are redeemed by the blood of Christ (this is hypothetical), then we are still forgiven.

    It is all of grace and none of works. It is all of God and none of us. It is all of Christ's righteousness and none of ours.

    We have nothing to do with our salvation except in our response to His gospel message of faith in what He did for us on the Cross.

    If we truly believe in what He did for us and are truly recipients of His grace, then His grace will teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and that we ought to live righteously, soberly, and godly in this present world.

    But a salvation by works/ personal holiness message does not teach this. What it teaches instead is that we are not accepted in the Beloved and that we have to strive in order to get or keep our salvation. And the devil uses these kinds of things to discourage unto despair those who are seeking the Lord's salvation.
     
  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Unfortunately, my friend, the idea that you present here is like a dog chasing it's own tail. What you present is a contradiction. You inadvertently just activated the auto destruct sequence. You are preaching a belief that has a double message that quickly self implodes in on itself. How so? Well, if I understood what you said correctly: You are essentially presenting two separate different beliefs that is kind of like in two different hands (that conflict with each other).

    Hand #1. In the one hand, you will say that holiness and works will follow a true saving faith (and it is not a license to sin) and yet:

    Hand #2. In the other hand, you say hypothetically speaking if a believer does not do good works and he does not live holy, he is still saved (Which is turning God's grace into a license to sin).​

    So what about the verses you present? Do these verses really teach that on some hypothetical chance we can sin and still be saved in some cases?

    No.

    While I would like to present to you a commentary on each of these verses at a later time, you need to first realize that Paul's message of grace and no works was in context to the Law of Moses and in view of being saved by Law Alone without God's grace. Paul was telling us not to put the cart (works) before the horse (God's grace through faith, i.e. Jesus), and not to go back to the 613 Laws within the Law of Moses (in the Old Testament - contractually speaking) so as to be justified. How can we prove this?

    Well, there is a difference between the works of faith vs. the works of the Law:

    Works of Faith:

    "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

    "Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

    "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

    "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22).

    "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

    "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).​


    Works of the Law:
    (i.e. the works of the Law of Moses):

    "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" (Romans 9:32).

    "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16).

    "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2).

    "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:5).

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10).​

    Notice Galatians 3:10. It says "the book of the law."
    Now, is this "book of the law" in reference to the Torah (with the 613 commands given to Moses)? Or was this book of the law in reference to the commands in the New Testament that came by Jesus Christ and His followers? Stop and think.

    For Paul sometimes uses the word "law" or "works" as in reference to the "Law of Moses" or the "works of the Law of Moses." Books like Romans, Galatians, and 1 Corinthians written by Paul shows us that he condemns "Circumcision Salvationism" or in a person trying to be saved through circumcision:

    1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

    2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

    3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

    4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

    5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

    6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

    7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

    8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

    9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

    If the above verses do not entirely convince you, then please see these three verses that took place at the Jerusalem counsel.

    1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” .................................................
    3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

    Also, in Romans and Galatians (the two biggest books on Justification by Faith), you don't have far to look to see that Paul is talking about the Law of Moses and he is not referring to all law in general (Like the commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers). In other words, whenever you read a verse about how Paul says we are not under the Law or not saved by works in the book of Romans or Galatians, just read the previous passages and or the previous chapter or two and you will see some kind of context in reference to the Law of Moses. Nowhere does Paul ever say that this is in reference to the commands of Jesus. Paul says if you break the Moral Law (like murder, etc.), you will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
     
  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    In addition, the Bible teaches that...

    After we are saved by God's grace,
    God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


    (Here are a List of Verses):


    “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

    "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

    "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

    “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

    "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

    "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

    “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

    "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

    ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

    "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

    “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

    "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

    "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

    ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

    "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

    “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

    "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

    “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

    “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

    ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

    “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

    ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

    ”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

    ”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

    ”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

    ”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

    “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

    “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Okay, for the Berean I submit Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:4-7.

    These scriptures indicate that the spiritual transformation that is identified as being born again does not come about by any works that we might accomplish. It is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. We are made into new creatures in Christ because of this alone; and works follow as the result.

    Circumcision also, is not of the law but of the patriarchs (John 7:22). Think about that for a while in consideration of your theology.

    In the verses I reference above, works are not mentioned in context of the law of Moses. Paul is referring to the attempt to be saved by what we do rather than putting our trust in what Jesus did for us on the Cross. Because these are competing elements. You are either trusting in Jesus or you are trusting in your works to save you. It is one or the other; it can't be both.

    If you are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ then you are a new creature and works will follow if the opportunity arises. And the opportunity may not arise, as with the case in point of the thief on the cross. So in that case and in all other cases where saving faith exists but works do not follow, the person is saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    I say these things to promote the concept that the only faithful motivation for serving Jesus must not be fear but a love for Him and a thankfulness over what He has done for you. I realize that some may take my words out of context and think that they are saved when they have no genuine faith capable of producing works. See Isaiah 26:10. Yet the only proper motivation for serving the Lord Jesus Christ is that we love Him much because we are forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). Therefore I stress forgiveness rather than obedience because the only real obedience that God accepts can only come from the heart of one who is forgiven; not from the heart of one who is attempting to earn their salvation in violation of the grace of our Lord.
     
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Jesus was a minister of the circumcision. Think about that in relation to all of the verses that you have quoted by Him in relation to your theology.
     
  8. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    There are no scriptures, any place in the bible at all, that imply "eternal security". The bible speaks of "eternal life" for those who will accept it and obey, but nowhere is there any inkling that God will not let a person have their own will.
     
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    I think that there must be something wrong with your eyes. The verses are right there before you.

    When we come to Christ, He makes us new creatures in Him. We are His sheep; it is not in our nature to return to our own vomit or to our wallowing in the mud. As sheep we despise vomit and mud, and will run as far away from it as soon as possible if we are ever forced into a situation where we are forced to eat vomit or have mud all over us. We are not comfortable in it, we hate it.

    Not to mention the blood of Christ cleanses us from past, present, and future sin(s) because we simply put our faith and trust in Him (Romans 4:7-8, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 7:25).
     
  10. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    If we can find a point to begin, please show us where it says "past, present, and future sins".
     
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    It is true Jesus was a minister of circumcision (Romans 15:8). This was before the cross when the 613 laws within the Laws of Moses (as a whole) were still in effect (contractually speaking). That does not change the fact that AFTER the beginning of the New Covenant (Which began with Christ's death), circumcision is no longer a part of the faith.

    Please.

    Please read the following verses that took place at the Jerusalem counsel:

    1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” ........................................................................................................
    3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

    So the counsel was trying to say that "Circumcision Salvationism" and or trying to be justified by following the WHOLE of the Torah is not in view of salvation under the New Covenant. If you cannot see these above verses, I really cannot help you. They are clear in what they say. This does not mean we are free to do whatever we like. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. We are under a New Covenant with new commands. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says

    3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  12. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    This can be a difficult subject.

    Especially when one considers the scene where Jesus rejects many people, saying he never knew them.
    Remember, those people identified with Jesus, thus believing in him. So how can all the above verses be true for THOSE people? They did mighty works in his name, right? If they did not really believe in him they wouldn't have done many good works and miracles.
    So then, perhaps his definition of the word believe is different that ours.
     
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    As I said before, Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism."

    For Paul says in Romans 3:1, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

    Paul says in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised Christ will profit you nothing. Why would he say that? It's because they believed circumcision was necessary for salvation (Which was the problem addressed at the Jerusalem counsel; Again, see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

    Romans 4:1-8 is in reference to how Abraham was saved first by God's grace and not by Works Alone because of the problem of those who thought they needed to be circumcised in order to be saved. A believer needs to first trust in God's grace (Jesus) for salvation and not circumcision. Nobody can be saved by circumcision under the New Covenant. Jesus saves. But accepting Jesus and abiding in Him is not a license for immorality on some level. For the purpose or reason Christ died for us was so as to make us holy, blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27), and zealous of good works (Titus 2:14).

    We also hear this about Abraham, too.

    "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." (Romans 4:21).

    "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).

    So Abraham was justified by faith without works by trusting God in his walk, and Abraham was also justified by works in offering Isaac his son upon the altar.

    You need both God's grace and works to be saved.
    The point Paul is trying to make is that we are not saved by "Law Alone" or "Works Alone" (that does not include God's grace or a belief that nullifies the grace of God - like the false belief known as: "Circumcision Salvationism."). It is why Paul talked the way that he did.

    Right. Abraham was the topic of discussion involving how we do not need to be circumcised in Romans 4:9-12. This fact does not help your belief in any way but it actually destroys it. Most in your camp do not want to see that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which was a topic of discussion at the Jerusalem counsel).

    I am not arguing against how faith must come first with works then following.
    I believe we are saved by faith first and faith is the foundation of our salvation.
    Works then flow out of this faith thereby showing that one's faith is true.
    A believer cannot be devoid of works as a part of their faith than for rain to not be wet. Faith and works go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other eventually. If not, then one's faith is dead.

    As for the spiritual transformation:

    While believers are born again spiritually, their free will is not overwritten by God. Believers can still sin and or turn back to their old way of life and be unsaved again. Also, nothing is said about the spiritual transformation in Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, and Ephesians 2:8-9.

    As for Titus 3:4-7:

    It is true that a believer is saved by receiving a new heart with new desires by the Holy Ghost, and they are saved by the continuing work of the Spirit in their lives, but we do have to cooperate with the Spirit in our lives. Ananias and Sapphira had lied to the Holy Ghost and they were instantly judged or killed for their sin. A great fear came upon the church and all who heard about it. This means, they lost their salvation and died (abiding in spiritual death) because no believer is going to have an emotion of fear over saved believers.

    Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:4-7 are all talking about how we are not saved by "Law Alone" or by "Works Alone" (that did not include God's saving grace). The book of Romans, Galatians, and 1 Corinthians talk about how Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism."

    Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. Again, you do not understand. Paul was fighting against "Works Alone Salvationism" and James was fighting against "Belief Alone Salvationism."

    "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

    Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

    So it is not just a belief alone that saves. One needs works and holiness as a part of one's faith for it to be true.

    Sanctification of the Spirit (holy living) and belief of the truth is a part of the call of the gospel.

    13 “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

    This ties in nicely with:

    23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

    Tying in with 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, God is able to keep us from stumbling.

    “Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,” (Jude 1:24) (ESV) (KJV says “falling” instead of stumbling. But it means the same thing). The context is to keep you blameless (i.e. faultless - KJV).

    God is able to make us stand:

    “Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.” (Romans 14:4).

    Why does God not make some people to not stand? It’s because they are not answering His call. See Zechariah 7:14. 1 John 3:22 says, “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.” We are called by Jesus Christ to obedience to the faith (See Romans 1:5-6).

    28 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
    They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
    29 Because they hated knowledge
    And did not choose the fear of the Lord,
    30 They would have none of my counsel
    And despised my every rebuke.” (Proverbs 1:28-30) (NKJV).​

    While perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18), this is only if we perfect love by keeping His Word (See 1 John 2:5-6). The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom (Proverbs 1:7) (Proverbs 9:10). The fear of the Lord leads us into the love of God and it helps us to perfect our love. We are told to fear Jesus who has the power to throw our body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

    "And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28) (BLB).

    For why should we fear the Lord?

    "Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." (Proverbs 3:7).

    So you believe works play a part in the salvation process?
    I don't get that impression.

    I am not sure how Isaiah 26:10 helps support your belief.
    It says the wicked will keep doing wicked despite us doing good towards them.
    Granted, this does not mean all people who are wicked can not be effected by what we do and they would then repent. The wicked in context here are those who are really hardened against God in this life (Who will not repent).

    Do not deceive yourself into thinking future sin is forgiven you.
    It is not.
    1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10.

    The woman who cried at Jesus's feet was forgiven of her past sins.
    When you read 1 John 4:19:
    You also have to read 1 John 4:8 that says: "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:8).
    As for Romans 5:5 in reference to how you are given the Holy Ghost:
    Well, Acts of the Apostles 5:32 says, "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

    So the Holy Ghost is given to them that obey him.

    Grace is not a mere paying of lip service or thinking we can turn God's grace into a license for immorality. While we do need to repent and seek forgiveness with the Lord, this should not be the constant state of the believer. A believer should be walking uprightly after they are forgiven of their sins. If no obedience is stressed then one can think you are turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

    Jesus says, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    I already gave the references for the scriptures that declare that truth quite nicely.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    My friend, I was not promoting the idea of circumcision salvationism. I was merely pointing out that Jesus' words in the gospels were words that have to do with preaching the law as a schoolmaster to lead us to Him; and that the words of the Holy Spirit through Paul are what reveal to us the workings of grace and salvation by it.
     
  16. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Well humor me and do it again.
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Most definitely, to believe in Him will translate into obedience in a person's life; because the love of God is shed abroad in his heart through faith; which is the fulfilling of the law. If that love is not there it is the sign that the person does not have a genuine living and saving faith.

    However, forgiveness of sins comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Begin to trust in your works to save you, you are no longer trusting in Christ's finished work: and that is equal to damnation whether you think you believe or not. Jesus said "I never knew you", in context, to a group of people who were trusting that they were saved by all the things they had done for Christ.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Nope; I'm lazier than you. You go back and find them.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Hi @Jason0047,

    your posts are so long, I'm not inclined to read them. I don't think anyone else will either. If you say what you want to say but shorten it, then maybe we can have a conversation. I'm very busy and don't really have the time to read the long and drawn out posts like some of the ones that you post.
     
  20. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Not to be argumentative here...but if faith alone is enough, then those people should be in good shape.
    I would imagine that they believed in Jesus in faith. That is the reason they did many good works in his name. If they didn't have faith, they likely wouldn't bother being religious and doing religious works.
    Could you elaborate?
     
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