Scripturally Based or Scripturally Sound

[Izdaari Eristikon]

To answer the OP, the movie "The Seventh Sign" with Demi Moore was Scripturally based, in that it got its storyline from the loose interpretation of some verses in Revelation. But it was not Scripturally sound, in that it did not line up with the entire message of God's written word. At least that's how I interpret the difference.

Just so! Many things are scripturally based but not scripturally sound. The metaphysical cults come to mind (New Thought, Unity School of Christianity, Christian Science, etc.). They use lots and lots of scripture, but still come up with a really weird and heterodox theology.

I have my own opinions as to what and isn't scripturally sound, and they aren't based on the word of any self-proclaimed authority. There are a number of scholars I trust to help me out on matters I haven't yet studied enough, but they come from a number of different schools of thought, and I weigh them and form my own judgment, which often needs to be revised when I learn more. But that's the human condition: our understanding is necessarily imperfect in this life, as "through a glass darkly". We'll understand fully only in Heaven.

 

[D.W.Washburn]

True strength comes from the Lord.

There is a considerable difference between strength and force.

Something to think about...

Did Jesus use force or strength when he went to the cross?

 

[DeanM]

Right.

Dude, pass the doobie. I'll throw it in the trash for you.

Frankly, I don't think you've been in a real crisis in your life.

Don't you just love how some hasty guesswork, a few assumptions, and a badge of self-righteousness seem to bring the flock back into the fold?

It might have worked in the dark ages . . .

In perhaps the ultimate show of respect for CF's rules, I'll choose to "use the brain God gave me" and reason that love, support, and respect reign supreme over scare-tactics.

But thanks for playing.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

No comment. Just wanted Josh to know I read his last message. I personally hate it when I post something and then have to wonder from silence if the intended reader ever paid any attention.

 

[artybloke]

I kind of feel sorry for Josh and all those who are so ensconsed in their religion of fear. Though, who knows, maybe one day they too will discover the freedom of the Gospel and that "love casts out all fear."

Let us pray for them.

 

[Humuakalaka]

 

[plmarquette]

Let us re-invent the wheel....
Let us flush all the previous exegis....
Let us throw out the baby with the bath water....
For men do not need any religious framework, oversight, or education
.........I wouldn't recommend the philosophy for cardiologist that was working on you, any more than I would to a lay person sitting in a church with one....such....person

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

Let us re-invent the wheel....
Let us flush all the previous exegis....
Let us throw out the baby with the bath water....
For men do not need any religious framework, oversight, or education
.........

Religious framework - Yes. Fossilized dogmatic absolutism - No.
Education - Yes. Coersion and fear-based manipulation - No.

Oversight is one thing, but traditional Christianity turned overseeing into overlording. Conservatives tell us to accept without question Scriptural interpretations that pop into the minds of religious leaders overseeing whatever particular assemblies and institutions we belong to, as if these men alone hear the true whisper of the Holy Spirit. When I look back at my experiences in fundamentalist, evangelical and conservative Christianity, I now realize the god whispering such special revelation sounded suspiciously like a greedy, domineering, frustrated, heterosexist white male. And, since April of 1979, this god has voted republican.

 

[Catherineanne]

True strength comes from the Lord.

God's strength is love, mercy and compassion.

Any other kind of strength whatsoever is not strength at all, but brute force; twin brother to ignorance.

 

[JoshButler]

No comment. Just wanted Josh to know I read his last message. I personally hate it when I post something and then have to wonder from silence if the intended reader ever paid any attention.

Which is exactly why I said what I said.

Take a look at John 8:31-59:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.

Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father.

Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."


Also, James 4:4; "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

And 1 John 2:15-17; "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

 

[artybloke]

Scripturally based = Look! I've scissored out all these verses from a 2000 year old set of writings and used them to justify whatever overlording dominational theology I'm trying to foist on the rest of the world!

Scripturally sound = Hey! you agree with my dominational interpretation of this 2000 year old set of documents! You must be alright! (But I think you're unsound about that so you must be bound for helll...)

It's all about who has the loudest voice...

Or so it seems to me...

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

Scripturally based = Look! I've scissored out all these verses from a 2000 year old set of writings and used them to justify whatever overlording dominational theology I'm trying to foist on the rest of the world!

Scripturally sound = Hey! you agree with my dominational interpretation of this 2000 year old set of documents! You must be alright! (But I think you're unsound about that so you must be bound for helll...)

It's all about who has the loudest voice...

Or so it seems to me...

You summed things up pretty well artybloke.

Once you recognize all the techniques, it becomes almost comical to watch men (and women) battle for control of people's minds.

Some shout until they are hoarse, others pronounce their words with great solemnity for dramatic effect. One waves his hands and jumps about, another is quite somber and sour-faced. One climbs into a high pulpit or stage, another sits at home on the internet making web pages. Some throw in words like "thee and thou", while others impress with their degrees and credentials. One shakes a bible in the air while another simply sits on an impressive bishop's chair in a grand cathedral. All of them eventually end up threatening with either hell fire, getting excommunicated, being left behind, armageddon, annihiliation, hurricaines or terrorist attacks.

Take away the voice inflections, microphones, processions and stage props, and there is nothing whereby to recognize these people as specially chosen to dole out supernatural revelation. Whatever authority they claim only exists in the minds of the masses who "give" them that attention and authority. People are in power because other people put them in power, not because they can really call fire down from heaven or part the red sea or hold some golden tablets dropped from the sky. Wake up people. They don't have any more ability to hear the voice of God than you do. They have no heavenly connections that anyone and everyone doesn't potentially have. The main point of my original post was to point out that (somebody) is going to be the ultimate arbitrator of truth, but there are many voices out there claiming to be an external source of authority. You don't have to let some human outside yourself have dominion over you in spiritual matters. Don't blindly trust the invisble, unverifiable signals that supposedly pop into the minds of men who claim to hear from God and then turn around to threaten you if you don't obey their voice. Any force, coersion or fear-based message is just manipulation, not some divine mystery. Don't believe it when they say you are just a miserable sinner with a deceitful heart who can't tell right from wrong, and then proceed to stand in as God's mouthpiece as if they themselves are an exception to the rule of human fallibility. Take what you can use and discard the rest if it doesn't match up to your own intuition, insight, discernment and experience. Who ultimately and finally decides "for" you what absolute truth is? It should be you. When all is said and done, let yourself have the loudest voice.

 

[JoshButler]

This...

Once you recognize all the techniques, it becomes almost comical to watch men (and women) battle for control of people's minds.

Is why you don't understand me, and how I know you don't know God and moreover why I have a pretty good idea of what you're going to say before you say it.

And this...

When all is said and done, let yourself have the loudest voice.

Is what will always stand between you and the Lord on High.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."- Proverbs 3:5-6

I will pray to God for you and for myself, that my tongue doesn't take me into sin.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

This...



Is why you don't understand me, and how I know you don't know God and moreover why I have a pretty good idea of what you're going to say before you say it.

And this...



Is what will always stand between you and the Lord on High.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."- Proverbs 3:5-6

I will pray to God for you and for myself, that my tongue doesn't take me into sin.

I notice you replied to the first and last sentences but didn't refute anything in between. That Bible verse you quoted says to trust in the Lord, not trust in your preacher. I do acknowledge God, but not a book-god. When conservatives say not to lean on your own understanding, what they really mean is you have to lean on your preacher's understanding instead. You can go ahead and let me have it with both barrels. I won't get my feelings hurt or hold it against you for getting angry because I no longer believe in that Chaldean concept of arbitrary law breaking which you Judeo-Christians call sin anyway. By the way, nothing stands between me and God because God is the all-pervading One who permeates all things, including the souls of fundamentalist Christians and "sinners" alike. Actually I guess that means He permeats the Bible too, so maybe I shouldn't criticize those who treat it like it's a Divine talking incarnation of Jesus Himself.

 

[JoshButler]

I notice you replied to the first and last sentences but didn't refute anything in between. That Bible verse you quoted says to trust in the Lord, not trust in your preacher. I do acknowledge God, but not a book-god. When conservatives say not to lean on your own understanding, what they really mean is you have to lean on your preacher's understanding instead. You can go ahead and let me have it with both barrels. I won't get my feelings hurt or hold it against you for getting angry because I no longer believe in that Chaldean concept of arbitrary law breaking which you Judeo-Christians call sin anyway. By the way, nothing stands between me and God because God is the all-pervading One who permeates all things, including the souls of fundamentalist Christians and "sinners" alike. Actually I guess that means He permeats the Bible too, so maybe I shouldn't criticize those who treat it like it's a Divine talking incarnation of Jesus Himself.

You keep on talking about "conservatives" and "my preacher." I find it amusing. Have you noticed that I haven't said a lot, but I've quoted the Bible quite a bit in this conversation?

"Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."- Ephesians 6:14-17

More to the point, you said a lie about God.

"Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"- Isaiah 66:1

It is true that:

"By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew."- Proverbs 3:19-20

But that's not what you're talking about, yes?

 

[artybloke]

but I've quoted the Bible quite a bit in this conversation?

So why should I take anything that this 2000 year old bunch of manuscripts written by a bunch of dead people any more seriously than what you say?

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

But that's not what you're talking about, yes?

I am a pan-en-theist. Since discovering panentheism, I beileve the only separation beween God and man is a perceived separation, but in reality God is in all things and all things are in God, while God still transcends and is greater than all things. Now, I seek to know God simply because He "is", not because I'm afraid of a wrathful, demanding Deity who gets angry and separates creatures from Himself for bad behavior. I can't keep chasing after a God who withdraws Himself in disgust every time I sin until I make a bargain not to do it again. That kind of god abandons you when you need Him the most. He's nothing but a cosmic probation officer. I need a God who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty. That means a God who is not only transcendent but also imminent in creation, so intimately involved in life, nature, the world, that as Paul said, "In Him we live and move and have our being." Some might psychologically need a far off judge who sits like Cesear on a throne issuing commandments and hurling down lightning bolts, but a god who egotistically loves his own holiness more than anything else is just not for me anymore.

You keep on talking about "conservatives" and "my preacher." I find it amusing.

Conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical, traditionalist, biblical literalist. I never know what to call that kind of mindset anymore because of all the label dodging. It's a world view where one takes authority over another using a book and/or a pastoral position. It doesn't matter whether you have an actual preacher or not, somebody preached a message and cloned you in the image of their authoritative, dominionist, exclusivist religion. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here making authoritative pronouncements on who knows God and who doesn't. The follower becomes the preacher himself, claiming to possess absolute truth, judging who is excluded from the kingdom. If you don't go by the title of conservative, I guess the only thing you really care about being called is "right".

 

[JoshButler]

So why should I take anything that this 2000 year old bunch of manuscripts written by a bunch of dead people any more seriously than what you say?

"Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"- Isaiah 29:15-16.

The point is, if you're arguing with scripture and not with me, it kind of proves the point, yes?

 

[JoshButler]

I am a pan-en-theist. Since discovering panentheism, I beileve the only separation beween God and man is a perceived separation, but in reality God is in all things and all things are in God, while God still transcends and is greater than all things. Now, I seek to know God simply because He "is", not because I'm afraid of a wrathful, demanding Deity who gets angry and separates creatures from Himself for bad behavior. I can't keep chasing after a God who withdraws Himself in disgust every time I sin until I make a bargain not to do it again. That kind of god abandons you when you need Him the most. He's nothing but a cosmic probation officer. I need a God who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty. That means a God who is not only transcendent but also imminent in creation, so intimately involved in life, nature, the world, that as Paul said, "In Him we live and move and have our being." Some might psychologically need a far off judge who sits like Cesear on a throne issuing commandments and hurling down lightning bolts, but a god who egotistically loves his own holiness more than anything else is just not for me anymore.

Did you miss the part where He went up to the cross for the sins of the whole world, that we might be rectified to Him? Moreover, the God Paul preaches IS GOD, JESUS CHRIST, THE LORD OF LORDS. You don't know Him or honor Him, by your own words! If you don't honor God, everything else you think is profane! In error you do not honor the Creator God of the earth, and your thoughts are confirmed in error.

Conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical, traditionalist, biblical literalist. I never know what to call that kind of mindset anymore because of all the label dodging. It's a world view where one takes authority over another using a book and/or a pastoral position. It doesn't matter whether you have an actual preacher or not, somebody preached a message and cloned you in the image of their authoritative, dominionist, exclusivist religion. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here making authoritative pronouncements on who knows God and who doesn't. The follower becomes the preacher himself, claiming to possess absolute truth, judging who is excluded from the kingdom. If you don't go by the title of conservative, I guess the only thing you really care about being called is "right".

I think the word you're looking for is "Christian."

 

[artybloke]

"Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"- Isaiah 29:15-16.

The point is, if you're arguing with scripture and not with me, it kind of proves the point, yes?

You've yet to prove that your scripture is relevant enough to argue with.