Scriptural Verification of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church

[Davy]

Where does it say they sat down to eat dinner at in those verses?
I must be reading a different Bible than you.

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
KJV

 

[DeaconDean]

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And this verse, will its fulfillment only at end of the millennial reign of Christ, the King.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:14 (KJV)

"Nothing causes such a flow of tears as death. The end of death will mean the end of all weeping.

“The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces.” John repeats these words twice in
Revelation. Death is the greatest insult to our humanity. The end of death will mean our complete
rehabilitation.

Alec J. Motyer, in Isaiah, comments on vv.7 and 8: “Until that Day dawns, the whole world is in its

shadows. We are born into it and therefore we do not recognize that what we call light is but twilight. Paul expressed it by saying ‘the night is nearly over; the day is almost here’ (Rom. 13:12), and the same thought lies behind the emphasis on the brightness (24:23) that is to come. In banishing everything that darkens life, the Lord will in particular swallow up death for ever. Death is not used just in the sense that every life is to some extent blighted by transience, but principally as the primary evidence of the curse imposed in consequence of sin …. In all his power (Sovereign) and in the fullness of his revealed nature as LORD (‘Yahweh’), God will dry the tears of his people. From all faces, i.e. he passes from one to another, individually, until every tear is dried … The disgrace of living in bondage and misery under alien rule in Egypt was gone, the days of living under the cloud of the disobedience of the golden calf were over: full covenant relationships were restored. So long as we live in this world, there are innumerable ways in which we are under reproach and hindered (by circumstances as well as by sin) from living up to our true dignity as his covenant people. But, on that Day, covenant promise will be covenant reality.” “That day” in v.9 is the Day of the Lord, the world’s last day. In contrast to the unbelief as exhibited by King Ahaz, who trusted in Assyria and Egypt for his protection, the nation of Israel will recognize that their salvation is in the LORD. Great mourning and weeping will accompany Israel’s initial reaction to this discovery. John, in Revelation, predicts: “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.”6 The tears wept at that time will also be wiped away by God."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
KJV

I do not believe the Bible is written in chronological order. I believe this feast would be in the Millennium after the battle of Armageddon. For Jesus said I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I come into my Kingdom. Jesus's kingdom will not come until the 1,000 year reign begins.

 

[Davy]

Wrong.

That Isaiah 25 Scripture is for after Christ's return, as all will be in the spiritual type body after Jesus returns. Death is not swallowed up just for Christ's Church then, but for all nations, meaning FLESH death, because after Christ's return the only type death remaining for the wicked is the "second death" (casting into the lake of fire after the 1,000 years reign by Jesus and His elect.)

Apostle Paul explained this in 1 Corinthians 15, but it's apparent not that many understood him. To have Eternal Life in Christ Jesus, one's body of corruption (flesh) must put on incorruption (spiritual body), AND, one's "mortal" (still liable to die soul) must put on immortality (a soul that can never die). It's the literal result between those who have believed on Christ Jesus vs. those who have not. The one is a "new creature" in Christ Jesus, and the other is still "dead" inside and liable to perish at the "second death".

So just having a body of incorruption (i.e, the spiritual body, the image of the heavenly), is not enough for Christ's Salvation. One's mortal soul must also put on immortality by accepting Jesus Christ as God The Savior for the remission of their sins. (And our soul isn't made immortal until Jesus comes.)

And this verse, will its fulfillment only at end of the millennial reign of Christ, the King.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:14 (KJV)

"Nothing causes such a flow of tears as death. The end of death will mean the end of all weeping.

“The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces.” John repeats these words twice in
Revelation. Death is the greatest insult to our humanity. The end of death will mean our complete
rehabilitation.

Alec J. Motyer, in Isaiah, comments on vv.7 and 8: “Until that Day dawns, the whole world is in its

shadows. We are born into it and therefore we do not recognize that what we call light is but twilight. Paul expressed it by saying ‘the night is nearly over; the day is almost here’ (Rom. 13:12), and the same thought lies behind the emphasis on the brightness (24:23) that is to come. In banishing everything that darkens life, the Lord will in particular swallow up death for ever. Death is not used just in the sense that every life is to some extent blighted by transience, but principally as the primary evidence of the curse imposed in consequence of sin …. In all his power (Sovereign) and in the fullness of his revealed nature as LORD (‘Yahweh’), God will dry the tears of his people. From all faces, i.e. he passes from one to another, individually, until every tear is dried … The disgrace of living in bondage and misery under alien rule in Egypt was gone, the days of living under the cloud of the disobedience of the golden calf were over: full covenant relationships were restored. So long as we live in this world, there are innumerable ways in which we are under reproach and hindered (by circumstances as well as by sin) from living up to our true dignity as his covenant people. But, on that Day, covenant promise will be covenant reality.” “That day” in v.9 is the Day of the Lord, the world’s last day. In contrast to the unbelief as exhibited by King Ahaz, who trusted in Assyria and Egypt for his protection, the nation of Israel will recognize that their salvation is in the LORD. Great mourning and weeping will accompany Israel’s initial reaction to this discovery. John, in Revelation, predicts: “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.”6 The tears wept at that time will also be wiped away by God."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Davy]

I do not believe the Bible is written in chronological order. I believe this feast would be in the Millennium after the battle of Armageddon. For Jesus said I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I come into my Kingdom. Jesus's kingdom will not come until the 1,000 year reign begins.

Yes, that's when it is for, after Christ's 2nd coming, during His future "thousand years" reign with His elect per Rev.20.

 

[BABerean2]

Just as I thought... your interpretation is not completely spurious and unbiblical. Still, in order to hold your interpretation you need to make some interpretational stretches in order to make all the pieces fit... just what your teacher is accusing the dispensationalists of doing.

Maybe Dr. Varner should tone down the rhetoric a bit concerning his opponents. We are NOT demon inspired lol.

Since you are a Methodist, maybe you should look at what Wesley had to say below about Daniel 9:27...

Daniel 9:27

He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant, By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. By his preaching. By signs and wonders. By his holy life. By his resurrection and ascension. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.


If Wesley's understanding is similar to mine, how did you end up with the Dispensationalist's interpretation of the passage?

.

 

[DeaconDean]

Wrong.

That Isaiah 25 Scripture is for after Christ's return, as all will be in the spiritual type body after Jesus returns. Death is not swallowed up just for Christ's Church then, but for all nations, meaning FLESH death, because after Christ's return the only type death remaining for the wicked is the "second death" (casting into the lake of fire after the 1,000 years reign by Jesus and His elect.)

Apostle Paul explained this in 1 Corinthians 15, but it's apparent not that many understood him. To have Eternal Life in Christ Jesus, one's body of corruption (flesh) must put on incorruption (spiritual body), AND, one's "mortal" (still liable to die soul) must put on immortality (a soul that can never die). It's the literal result between those who have believed on Christ Jesus vs. those who have not. The one is a "new creature" in Christ Jesus, and the other is still "dead" inside and liable to perish at the "second death".

So just having a body of incorruption (i.e, the spiritual body, the image of the heavenly), is not enough for Christ's Salvation. One's mortal soul must also put on immortality by accepting Jesus Christ as God The Savior for the remission of their sins. (And our soul isn't made immortal until Jesus comes.)

Here is the difference between you and I.

In seminary, I took the class on Isaiah. Our textbook: "The Prophecy of Isaiah; An Introduction and Commentary, by Alex J. Motyer".

The very commentary mentioned above.

You were shown a correct view, and you dismissed it for your own interpretation.

The only thing left to do is to do as Jesus said:

"And whosoever shall not...hear your words, when ye depart out, shake off the dust of your feet." -Mt. 10:17 (KJV)

Funny also, Isaiah said the same thing:

"Shake thyself from the dust; arise," -Isa. 52:2 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Davy]

Here is the difference between you and I.

In seminary, I took the class on Isaiah. Our textbook: "The Prophecy of Isaiah; An Introduction and Commentary, by Alex J. Motyer".

The very commentary mentioned above.

You were shown a correct view, and you dismissed it for your own interpretation.

The only thing left to do is to do as Jesus said:

"And whosoever shall not...hear your words, when ye depart out, shake off the dust of your feet." -Mt. 10:17 (KJV)

Funny also, Isaiah said the same thing:

"Shake thyself from the dust; arise," -Isa. 52:2 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

That is fanatical Jewish thinking.

And it's adding quite a bit to the events in those Isaiah 25 verses, because in Isaiah 25:7 God is going to destroy the face of covering cast over ALL people, and the vail that is spread over ALL nations. So it's not... just about Jewish concepts like Motyer's!

This is why after Christ's return towards the end of Zechariah 14, those of the nations will ALSO be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

So it ain't just about the saved only, it's about ALL peoples left in that future time after Christ's return. The nations of unsaved are those whom Christ's elect are going to be priests and kings over, and they will be taught the difference between the clean and the unclean, the profane and the holy.

 

[food4thought]

Since you are a Methodist, maybe you should look at what Wesley had to say below about Daniel 9:27...

Daniel 9:27

He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant, By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. By his preaching. By signs and wonders. By his holy life. By his resurrection and ascension. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.


If Wesley's understanding is similar to mine, how did you end up with the Dispensationalist's interpretation of the passage?

.

Because Wesley was not inerrant. He had some very good ideas, but not on everything. Before I called the United Methodist church home, I was in the Calvary Chapel movement for almost a decade, and went to their Bible college. I also got my Bachelor from Liberty University. Obviously, I am much more Evangelical than Methodist in my eschatology.

 

[jgr]

This is a non-starter in my mind. The Jews did not destroy the temple or the city, the Roman army did.

Jews themselves concur otherwise:

"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

 

[food4thought]

Jews themselves concur otherwise:

"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

I better understand your interpretation of things, but think this is definitely a big stretch to consider the Jewish people as the destroyers of "the city and the sanctuary".

 

[jgr]

I better understand your interpretation of things, but think this is definitely a big stretch to consider the Jewish people as the destroyers of "the city and the sanctuary".

Right there in their own words:

"the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction"

Not my interpretation. History's record.

 

[BABerean2]

Before I called the United Methodist church home, I was in the Calvary Chapel movement for almost a decade, and went to their Bible college. I also got my Bachelor from Liberty University. Obviously, I am much more Evangelical than Methodist in my eschatology.

Now I understand.

You were immersed in John Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine long before you ended up in a Methodist church body.

Lets see now...

The 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible that the Pilgrims brought to America, agrees with me that Daniel 9:27 is about the New Covenant of Christ.

The notes of the NKJV Bible agrees with me, since the scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 is Matthew 26:28.

John Wesley agrees with me that the verse is about the New Covenant.

But you agree with Chuck Smith and others who have adopted the Two Peoples of God doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War.

Now I understand, how you got where you are now.

.

 

[Quasar92]

I disagree. I have shown that there are two Raptures that are clearly different from each other.

One verse says they are being called to the Marriage.
The other verse says they are being called to the Marriage Supper.
Do you need me to show you those two verses again?

Also, have you never heard of guests just showing up for the reception before?

Mt.24:29 and Rev.6:12-13 are one and the same event. There is but ONE rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7:8.

Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Mt.24:29 and Rev.6:12-13 are one and the same event. There is but ONE rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7:8.

Quasar92

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

This same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, which reveals it to be a Second Coming event.

.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

This same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, which reveals it to be a Second Coming event.

.

But when we look at verse one we see

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

We note that it does not say ............but of the time and season, brethren.

This completely shuts down your theory as we see there is more than one time and season, so try again.

 

[BABerean2]

But when we look at verse one we see

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

We note that it does not say ............but of the time and season, brethren.

This completely shuts down your theory as we see there is more than one time and season, so try again.

But...

the context is revealed by the next verse ...

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


Pretrib only works by ignoring the verses that destroy the doctrine, like Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is fanatical Jewish thinking.

And it's adding quite a bit to the events in those Isaiah 25 verses, because in Isaiah 25:7 God is going to destroy the face of covering cast over ALL people, and the vail that is spread over ALL nations. So it's not... just about Jewish concepts like Motyer's!

This is why after Christ's return towards the end of Zechariah 14, those of the nations will ALSO be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

So it ain't just about the saved only, it's about ALL peoples left in that future time after Christ's return. The nations of unsaved are those whom Christ's elect are going to be priests and kings over, and they will be taught the difference between the clean and the unclean, the profane and the holy.

You have unsaved sinners in your 1000 year kingdom, that the righteous will rule over?

Murderers
Thiefs
Liars
Extortion
Homosexuals
Feminist
Racist's

Unsaved Sinners?

Is this kingdom gonna have police officers and a correctional system with prisons too?

Equal opportunity office also?

Human Rights Advocates Also?

How's the church gonna rule the unsaved sinners?

 

[DeaconDean]

You have unsaved in your 1000 year kingdom, that the righteous will rule over?

Murderers
Thiefs
Liars
Homosexuals
Adulterers?

Is this kingdom gonna have a correctional system and prisons too?

Why is it, scripture tells us that after the millennial reign, that:

"Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." -Rev. 20:7-8 (KJV)

Just as was in Jesus' time, there will be people who by outside appearances, appear to be "Christian":

"but their heart is far from me." -Mt. 15:8 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Choose Wisely]

But...

the context is revealed by the next verse ...

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Which proves EXACTLY NOTHING as there is no denial of what is being talked about in chapter 5.

Pretrib only works by ignoring the verses that destroy the doctrine, like Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

LOL.......PRETRIB works perfectly. All you have to do is READ EXACTLY WHAT IS SAYS. All the arguments that there is no pre trib fall apart when you keep things is context and don't make anything up.

In your example..........which as usual is out of context......the woman is Israel. The time frame from the middle of the chapter is the last 3.5 years. The church is already gone. The 12 tribes have been raptured and we are talking about remnant Israel who has been witnessed to by 2 witnesses.