Screens, Icons & Culture: Is there a point where the 2 cannot mix?

Gxg (G²)

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Read something very interesting recently, from one of the ministries I've followed, from one very wonderful individual who is African and Orthodox. It was on the issue of the ways Orthodox Worship seemed to be alot different in depth than what's seen in other places...and as said in his article entitled Liturgy, worship and digital doodads « Khanya (for a brief excerpt):
It seems to me that the use of this digital gadgetry is essentially incompatible with liturgy. Liturgy is “the work of the people”.

As Ugolnik (1990:138) puts it
Liturgics enacts a representation of reality, embedded within a text, and seeks to impose its framework of meaning upon a resistant world. It is not, in essence, an ‘alternative reality,’ representative of a world in which it is contained – in the way, say, Middlemarch is a fictional representation of a provincial English town. Liturgics seeks to impose the textual vision upon a resistant world, and make the world conform to it. There is a phenomenon of inversion which is very important to a Russian Orthodox sense of liturgy; liturgy is in itself a kind of ‘revolutionary’ act. In this way Alexander Schmemann sees the liturgy as enacting or celebrating the Kingdom of God, a spiritual kingdom of justice and liberation, within a world which does not accept it.
And as Fr Alexander Schmemann (1983:25-26) himself has said:
The Eucharist is a liturgy. And he who says liturgy today is likely to get involved in a controversy. For to some — the “liturgically minded” — of all the activities of the Church, liturgy is the most important, if not the only one. To others, liturgy is an esthetic and and spiritual deviation from the real task of the Church. There exist today “liturgical” and “non-liturgical” churches and Christians. But this controversy is unnecessary for it has its roots in one basic misunderstanding– the “liturgical” understanding of the liturgy. This is the reduction of the liturgy to “cultic” categories, its definition as a sacred act of worship, different as such not only from the “profane” area of life, but even from all other activities of the Church itself. But this is not the original meaning of the Greek word leitourgia. It meant an action by which a group of people become something corporately which they had not been as a mere collection of individuals — a whole greater than the sum of its parts. It meant also a function or “ministry” of a man or of a group on behalf of and in the interest of the whole community. Thus the leitourgia of ancient Israel was the corporate work of a chosen few to prepare the world for the coming of the Messiah. And in this very act of preparation they became what they were called to be, the Israel of God, the chosen instrument of His purpose.

Thus the Church itself is a leiturgia, a ministry, a calling to act in this world after the fashion of Christ, to bear testimony to Him and His kingdom. The eucharistic liturgy, therefore, must not be approached and understood in “liturgical” or “cultic” terms alone. Just as Christianity can — and must — be considered the end of religion, so the Christian liturgy in general, and the Eucharist in particular, are indeed the end of cult, of the sacred and religious act isolated from, and opposed to, the “profane” life of the community. The first condition for the understanding of liturgy is to forget about any specific “liturgical piety”
When a gathering of people are looking at a screen, they are not doing something together; they are rather passive recipients of something being done to them. It ceases to be liturgy and becomes manipulation, driven by the people managing the equipment. “Let us pray to the Lord: next slide”.

And when I try to think of this in the context of Orthodox worship, the incompatibility becomes obvious, for where can you put a screen in an Orthodox Church where it will not obscure some of the ikons?

Putting a screen in front of the ikons is replacing something having a deep, abiding and powerful symbolism with something superficial, banal and ephemeral.

But it is more. It breaks the community of the church.

Putting a screen in front of the ikons not only hides the ikons from the congregation, but it symbolically hides the congregation from the view of the saints depicted in the ikons. We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, except for those we have chosen to exclude in favour of our own more ephemeral and self-centred concerns, our “worship experience”.

Orthodox Churches in Muslim countries are sometimes vandalised, because Muslims are iconoclasts. But they don’t usually vandalise the whole ikon, they just chisel out the eyes. And by putting a screen in front of the ikons we would in effect be doing the same thing.

If you can understand this, you may able to know something of the difference between the Orthodox Christian view of worship, and that of most Western Christians, certainly most Protestants.
I was rather amazed seeing the dynamic of how there seemed to be a bit of concern over the use of screens to show music. Whenever I've gone to Orthodox churches, the use of the screens didn't seem to be a distraction from what we were saying in the service itself/praying together...and the icons present did not seem to fade away due to the screens. But I do think the man had a point when saying that technology may possibly take away from the use of icons. Coming from an African perspective, I was wondering if perhaps what he noted was different than how it'd be for others in the Western Hemisphere in Orthodoxy since there's less usage of technology in some parts of Africa than what the West uses.

Do Orthodox here feel like the use of screens is a bad thing within service?
 

Gxg (G²)

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there should be no screens during a worship service. that idea sounds very off. now, if it is for a lecture or something that is happening at a large parish, but to be used in the DL? it just doesn't sound right.
I do wonder if it really has anything to do with culture, as the Orthodox individual was from Africa and I was thinking if perhaps what he grew up with (in the abscence of technology in some parts and more reliance on one's own abilities/senses) impacted his views on differing levels of it...whereas Orthodox places elsewhere would not have that experience impacting them.
 
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gracefullamb

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Easy G (G²);60659920 said:
Whenever I've gone to Orthodox churches, the use of the screens didn't seem to be a distraction from what we were saying in the service itself/praying together...and the icons present did not seem to fade away due to the screens.

Was this an Eastern Orthodox or a Coptic Orthodox church you attended that had projector screens? I know several Coptic churches in the US do have screens but never heard of any EOC so that is why I ask. The only time I have ever heard of projector screens in an EOC was in Moscow when they tried it in a church or two as an experiment for a couple of weeks. The faithful had such a negative reaction they stopped it after just couple of weeks.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Was this an Eastern Orthodox or a Coptic Orthodox church you attended that had projector screens? I know several Coptic churches in the US do have screens but never heard of any EOC so that is why I ask. .
Makes sense, as the branch of Orthodoxy I investigated service with was a Coptic Orthodox fellowship (with the priest speaking using an iPad as well for his sermon notes..more shared here in #37 and here / #80 ). The screens were used mainly to show what words were being prayed during the Liturgy. I heard of other Orthodox fellowships within Eastern Orthodoxy that use other technological means like screens (as well as pews), but I didn't know if it was widespread.

I know that the subject of having others tempted to focus on the icons/potentially worship them has come up in Coptic Orthodox circles before...and it is because of that, from what I was told, that many of the artistic designs/styles they use to make icons almost seem carton-like rather than showing them in a life-like manner as it seems to be in Eastern Orthodox parishes.
The only time I have ever heard of projector screens in an EOC was in Moscow when they tried it in a church or two as an experiment for a couple of weeks. The faithful had such a negative reaction they stopped it after just couple of weeks
What were thr reasons behind why the faithful there in Moscow reacted so negatively toward it?
 
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ikonographics

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Easy G (G²);60659920 said:
Read something very interesting recently, from one of the ministries I've followed, from one very wonderful individual who is African and Orthodox. It was on the issue of the ways Orthodox Worship seemed to be alot different in depth than what's seen in other places...and as said in his article entitled Liturgy, worship and digital doodads « Khanya

That's my father's blog!
 
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Gxg (G²)

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That's my father's blog!
:) Wow:hoho::happyblush:

Had no idea...and now that I know, it truly reminds me of how it really is a small world afterall. Glad to know your father was the individual behind that ministry/blog, as I can definately see many of the ways you connect in the thoughts you express. Would have never pictured you as African....

Curious as to what you felt on the paticualr concept your father noted
 
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Gxg (G²)

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it could be, and there certainly is a ministry within the Church for that kinda stuff, you just gotta find the proper place for it.
Definately ...
 
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~Anastasia~

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Of course, we already have pews and people sitting during the service when they are more than physically capable of standing for a mere hour and a half.
yeah, it's pretty sad sometimes

You know what made me sad?

I probably told y'all I was disappointed to find both the local Orthodox jurisdictions having pews. In the beginning, I just wanted to see how the worship could be affected by not having them. And I've had that opportunity.

But in a catechesis class, I heard a cradle Orthodox (she was attending because she felt she'd not learned enough of the basics) - anyway, she made a comment about a lady who would stand all during the service and used to cover her head. Father handled it well, IMO, talking about not judging someone else's piety. But he has said to me in private conversations on a similar topic that we need to be careful not to "stand out" in ways that might cause someone to stumble in being tempted to judge us. Thankfully it wasn't over my head covering, because I can't hide that.

But it saddened me to consider we might judge someone's piety because it's not our custom. (I'm speaking of one who chooses to stand - NOT criticizing you guys or saying you are judging. :) ) Though if they asked Father, he would suggest they sit in the back row or a back corner so as not to distract others if they expect they won't blend in.

In the choir now I get to stand the whole time. But in the congregation, I don't stand in the midst of the entire Church sitting, even if I want to.

Actually I often wish I could kneel, but we don't do that either ...
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think that a good way to keep yourself from standing out is to feel out what others are doing (within reason). stand when they stand, sit when they sit (unless it's after the Eucharist is consecrated), and try to be more toward the back so that no one can see what you are doing. that's what I was taught to do and it has worked so far.

as for head coverings, I know many females that will bring them in, and wear them if others are or drape them over their shoulders if not.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I think that a good way to keep yourself from standing out is to feel out what others are doing (within reason). stand when they stand, sit when they sit (unless it's after the Eucharist is consecrated), and try to be more toward the back so that no one can see what you are doing. that's what I was taught to do and it has worked so far.

as for head coverings, I know many females that will bring them in, and wear them if others are or drape them over their shoulders if not.

In our parish, it's pretty well choreographed when to sit/stand. Actually, they only sit during some of the early litanies, and the reading of the epistle. And during the homily. After the homily, they stand until after the final prayers, when Father will tell us to sit if he has announcements.

As to the head covering, it's my problem. I know in many jurisdictions they don't really wear them at all, but I generally wear it even at home when praying alone. I feel pretty strongly about it, and I'm incredibly distracted worrying about it if I don't wear it. I did remove it when I came down for the memorial service for my Nouna's 40th day, because the family asked me to sit with them and I didn't want to distract them, and the Liturgy was over. But even that made me very uncomfortable.

I probably need to work on that mentally a bit.
 
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ArmyMatt

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nah, it just sounds like that is part of your piety. all you gotta do is fight them thoughts of looking down on others (which we all have to some extent, I am crazy guilty when it comes to certain things) and you'll be right as rain
 
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nah, it just sounds like that is part of your piety. all you gotta do is fight them thoughts of looking down on others (which we all have to some extent, I am crazy guilty when it comes to certain things) and you'll be right as rain

Well that makes me feel better. Father just said if I felt I should wear it, then wear it.

I did have an ongoing battle early on with that - that is one of my weakest points. But after working on keeping any such thoughts out and finally getting some measure of progress, though not victory, my SF gave me a little trick that has worked very well for me. Now such temptation is embarrassing, if I can keep my thoughts on track.

And thankfully I'm more likely to be looked at as odd ;) so I am often more conscious of not being guilty of stumbling someone, rather than being tempted to pride. But it doesn't help when the yiayias decide to praise me for it. It's too tempting to want to be thought well of.
 
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