Science claims universe came from nothing at all!

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The law of entropy does, basically.You're just moving the question i.m.o.

Presumably you're referring to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - which, being statistical, works well for well-defined closed systems over intermediate timescales (not too short, not too long), but not over infinite (or even very large) timescales and/or an infinite (or even very large) universe. Probability at work.

Why does it exist, what causes things?

Why does God exist? why does God cause things? [The underlying natural explanation of cause is quantum fluctuations.]

And really, if you expect dead unconscious forces to be explanatory for what we see in reality, you must have a need for believing in naturalistic ideas.

Ah; the argument from incredulity...

 

[Hieronymus]

Presumably you're referring to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - which, being statistical, works well for well-defined closed systems over intermediate timescales (not too short, not too long), but not over infinite (or even very large) timescales and/or an infinite (or even very large) universe. Probability at work.

The universe is a closed system, there's nothing physical beyond it, even the 'quantum matrix' is a part of it.
And how probable do you think it is that a fine tuned universe emerges by chance?

Why does God exist? why does God cause things? [The underlying natural explanation of cause is quantum fluctuations.]

Ah; the argument from incredulity...

No, atheists (naturalists) argue from incredulity.

 

[JackRT]

So why can't the universe have created itself, or just appeared or whatever, just like God apparently did?

Now THAT is one really great question!

 

[pat34lee]

But we would know there is a rational, natural explanation, with no need to invoke any supernatural explanation for it.
So why don't you do that for God?

True, even moreso than you think.

What is that saying?
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
This also goes for God's power.

God doesn't need technology, as he created everything
natural, including matter and energy. He is the source of
all things.

 

[Kylie]

Yes, of course.

Then why have we not detected it?

You might say that many people have, but given that their accounts vary so widely, we can hardly take those accounts as descriptions of the same thing. The accounts we have are much more likely to be the result of people being influenced by their feelings and culture than they are to be accurate descriptions of something which exists separately to them.

 

[Tayla]

Then why have we not detected it?

We *have* detected the spiritual realm. Some serious mainstream scientists are accepting dualism when considering consciousness. I am merely expanding this in a way that makes sense and is compatible with Christian metaphysics. Kant didn't limit his philosophical system to materialism. Nor Aristotle, and I don't know how many other modern philosophers.

 

[Kylie]

True, even moreso than you think.

What is that saying?
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
This also goes for God's power.

God doesn't need technology, as he created everything
natural, including matter and energy. He is the source of
all things.

So if you went out into space and encountered an alien species that could do all those things with highly advanced technology, how would you tell that it was an advanced alien race and not God?

 

[Kylie]

We *have* detected the spiritual realm. Some serious mainstream scientists are accepting dualism when considering consciousness. I am merely expanding this in a way that makes sense and is compatible with Christian metaphysics. Kant didn't limit his philosophical system to materialism. Nor Aristotle, and I don't know how many other modern philosophers.

Then why is there no agreement when it comes to the way this spiritual realm works?

 

[Audacious]

We *have* detected the spiritual realm. Some serious mainstream scientists are accepting dualism when considering consciousness. I am merely expanding this in a way that makes sense and is compatible with Christian metaphysics. Kant didn't limit his philosophical system to materialism. Nor Aristotle, and I don't know how many other modern philosophers.

Please, find me a link for a mainstream neurologist who believes in dualist consciousness.

Key word: mainstream.

 

[Tayla]

Then why is there no agreement when it comes to the way this spiritual realm works?

No one agrees about consciousness works either. I'm in good company.

 

[Tayla]

Please, find me a link for a mainstream neurologist who believes in dualist consciousness.

Key word: mainstream.

Roger Penrose & Stuart Hameroff. Also David Chalmers.

 

[pat34lee]

So if you went out into space and encountered an alien species that could do all those things with highly advanced technology, how would you tell that it was an advanced alien race and not God?

Anything we encounter is more likely to be angelic
or demonic than alien.

Besides, if it took us 20 billion years to get where we
are today, what makes you think evolution anywhere
could be fast-tracked? Any other civilization would be
like us, if not less advanced, unless everything science
tells us about the past is wrong. And it is. Our ancestors
were far more advanced than we are today.

 

[Kylie]

No one agrees about consciousness works either. I'm in good company.

Is that the best argument you've got?

The guy who claims that the moon is a holographic projection and isn't real can say, "They laughed at Galileo when he said the Earth is not the center of the universe too, so I'm in good company."

Doesn't mean moon guy is right.

You need more than a vague shared trait in order to prove your point. And we actually have a fairly good idea of how consciousness works, and how it is affected by damage to different parts of the brain.

 

[Kylie]

Anything we encounter is more likely to be angelic
or demonic than alien.

Got any evidence for this claim?

Besides, if it took us 20 billion years to get where we
are today, what makes you think evolution anywhere
could be fast-tracked? Any other civilization would be
like us, if not less advanced, unless everything science
tells us about the past is wrong. And it is. Our ancestors
were far more advanced than we are today.

Oh please. How far ahead would we be if not for the Dark Ages? We'd be spread throughout the solar system by now, maybe even travelling to other stars. A civilization doesn't need to be that far ahead of us in order to travel the stars. We went from the first planes to the first moon landing in less than a century, so if there was a civilization 1000 years ahead of us, who knows what they could be capable of?

And don't start with that mystical mumbo jumbo about the pyramids.

 

[pat34lee]

And don't start with that mystical mumbo jumbo about the pyramids.

It isn't just the pyramids, but every ancient culture that left giant stone structures.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Roger Penrose & Stuart Hameroff. Also David Chalmers.

None of those are neurologists, mainstream or otherwise.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We *have* detected the spiritual realm.

Citation?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The universe is a closed system, there's nothing physical beyond it, even the 'quantum matrix' is a part of it.

Thermodynamically speaking, the universe is an isolated system (exchanges neither matter nor energy), but when dealing with scales where General Relativity rules, things are a little different - for example, energy isn't conserved.

And how probable do you think it is that a fine tuned universe emerges by chance?

It doesn't matter how probable or improbable it is - given that regime, if you wait long enough, all physically possible universes will be realised. It may not be very aesthetically satisfying to our human sensibilities, but then neither is quantum superposition or entanglement.

No, atheists (naturalists) argue from incredulity.

Lack of belief due to lack of evidence (and/or persuasive argument), is not an argument from incredulity.

 

[JackRT]

We went from the first planes to the first moon landing in less than a century,

My father witnessed all of that in his lifetime.

 

[Kylie]

It isn't just the pyramids, but every ancient culture that left giant stone structures.