Sci-fy and Serenity

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you saying that kids should not play make believe?

Is that not in itself fiction?

There are things of this world that we are not to love, there are things of this world that we do love. Do you not love your mom and dad? How about a wife or your kids if you have them? Are they not of the world? They were born on this world. How about food? Do you not love to eat certain foods? Is not food of the world?

I should reiterate my statement above. Reading Harry Potter or watching the movies is not sin for me and other Christians, but it might be sin for another Christian.

I have prayed about such things and I was lead to the scripture mentioned earlier, along with Romans 15 and 1 Corinthians 8-10. What God was showing me is that some sins are sin for some and not others. Take alcohol for example. I can drink alcohol and it's not sin because I do not drink in excess. I also drink very rarely. Mainly just a wine cooler or two. For another they may drink till they are drunk, that is sin.

You are free to disagree with me, as I disagree with you. I will agree to disagree.

Also, there are obviously sinful things that you would not want your kids to play make believe about. Maybe a parent may not see a problem behind them playing Pirates whereby they steal from other ships, but would they have a problem if their kids were acting out something was more inappropriate contentographic or of a sexual nature? Surely not. For that sin is clearly condemned in our society. Most parents would see this as inappropriate because of the dangers involved in where it can lead (involving the law, how it can hurt their child, and their own respect within the community). But what about the other sins like stealing? That is what Pirates do. They steal. What about witches. There are real witches today who believe they do magic. No doubt they are operating by the powers of darkness. So why would a parent want their kids to indulge in this kind of sinful thing as a part of some fantasy? Surely it is not good. The Bible condemns it. Sorcerers were actually killed in the times of the Old Testament. Why act out or fantasize about something God hates? It makes no sense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I gave you my answer. Not my problem if you don't like it.

Look, my mind will not change. I have prayed to God about it and I gave you the scripture that I was lead to. If you have a problem, take it with Him. Me? My girlfriend and I will be going to Universal Studios on Sunday with our wands in hand and will enjoy the Harry Potter portion of the theme park.

One of these days, you are going to have to deal with 1 John 2:15-17. I know it troubled me when I was into watching secular films (after becoming a Christian).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you saying that kids should not play make believe?

Is that not in itself fiction?

There are things of this world that we are not to love, there are things of this world that we do love. Do you not love your mom and dad? How about a wife or your kids if you have them? Are they not of the world? They were born on this world. How about food? Do you not love to eat certain foods? Is not food of the world?

I should reiterate my statement above. Reading Harry Potter or watching the movies is not sin for me and other Christians, but it might be sin for another Christian.

I have prayed about such things and I was lead to the scripture mentioned earlier, along with Romans 15 and 1 Corinthians 8-10. What God was showing me is that some sins are sin for some and not others. Take alcohol for example. I can drink alcohol and it's not sin because I do not drink in excess. I also drink very rarely. Mainly just a wine cooler or two. For another they may drink till they are drunk, that is sin.

You are free to disagree with me, as I disagree with you. I will agree to disagree.

I remember when I used to play role playing games back in the 80's and 90's.
At one point, I remember that the game (fantasy) influenced me to wanting to actually cast a real spell. I wanted to see some kind of power. I thought it would be cool to see such power and be in control. But I am glad nothing came of it, and I did not continue to take it too seriously. Unfortunately, there are others who do continue to take such a thing seriously.

I can just imagine, when a child steals from a store, and their parents hear about it, and the kid says,

"But Mommy....Daddy, you did not have a problem with me playing make believe with you as a Pirate whereby I stole from other ships?" ​

No doubt, the parents would tell their child that they would no longer fantasize about such a thing. The same scenario can happen with witchcraft, or any other sin that is fantasized about. So while something may be fantasy, the fantasizing about a particular sin can influence one to do that sin.

Also, Jesus condemned not just adultery, but he said that to even look upon a woman in lust (Fantasy) is to commit adultery in your heart. Jesus said that doing this can lead to having one cast bodily into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30). So yes; Controlling our minds from fantasizing about sinful things is very serious to God.

 

[nanookadenord]

One of these days, you are going to have to deal with 1 John 2:15-17. I know it troubled me when I was into watching secular films (after becoming a Christian).

No, no I'm not. I have already prayed as I have told you twice already and this will be the third time. God lead me to the scriptures I mentioned. It is not a sin for me. Maybe for you it was. For me it's not.

For the record, I would allow my kids to play pretend witches and wizards. They have used my and my girlfriend's wand to play before.

I also read a series that you might know of from R. A. Salvatore. It's a bout a Drow Ranger name Drizzt. It's my favorite fantasy series. Again, I prayed about it and was brought to those scriptures.

There is sin that may be sin for you and not sin for me, and the other way around too.

 

[Resha Caner]

This is trying to deflect away from what Harry Potter and friends are doing.

It's not. It's an attempt to discuss. If you're not interested, OK.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, no I'm not. I have already prayed as I have told you twice already and this will be the third time. God lead me to the scriptures I mentioned. It is not a sin for me. Maybe for you it was. For me it's not.

For the record, I would allow my kids to play pretend witches and wizards. They have used my and my girlfriend's wand to play before.

I also read a series that you might know of from R. A. Salvatore. It's a bout a Drow Ranger name Drizzt. It's my favorite fantasy series. Again, I prayed about it and was brought to those scriptures.

There is sin that may be sin for you and not sin for me, and the other way around too.

See Post #43.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's not. It's an attempt to discuss. If you're not interested, OK.

Well, you are not addressing the real point that was made in regards to whether or not Harry and his friends operated by the powers of the devil or not. Before, I was given the impression that there was nothing wrong by what they were doing. It's okay, if you are now having a change of heart about it. For common sense clearly shows that the Harry Potter is pushing witchcraft that is condemned in the Bible.

 

[Resha Caner]

Well, you are not addressing the real point that was made in regards to whether or not Harry and his friends operated by the powers of the devil or not.

I am. You simply won't talk to me. Instead, you prefer to preach to me and demand I accept your view without ever explaining yourself in a way where we can both relate.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am. You simply won't talk to me. Instead, you prefer to preach to me and demand I accept your view without ever explaining yourself in a way where we can both relate.

I am talking to you. I am responding to what you are saying now. But you are not talking to me about whether or not Harry and his friends actually operated by the power of the dark arts or not. You attempted to deflect away from what they did by pointing out how the word "magic" may not always refer to magic. So are you saying that Harry and his friends did not operate by magic or sorcery that the Bible condemns? If it was not sorcery, then what was it? Does the Bible talk about this other power that is not sorcery that Harry and his friends used? They did cast spells which is a sign that it is witchcraft or sorcery. They even referred to themselves as witches, and wizards, etc. How do you see the sorcery in the Bible as being different from Harry Potter? I really do not see how you can reconcile them as being different (if that is what you are suggesting).

 

[Resha Caner]

You attempted to deflect away from what they did by point out how the word "magic" may not always refer to magic.

So you did get my point. This is the first time you've acknowledged that. I don't see how refusing to acknowledge what I said is "talking to me".

So in what sense does Harry Potter use the word magic? Do you have anything to back up your view? Just because a word was used does not mean it was used in connection with your definition. Context is crucial in language.

I searched the first book (Sorcerer's Stone). I found zero (0) uses of the word "god", zero (0) uses of the word "demon", and one (1) use of the word "angel":
Aunt Petunia often said that Dudley looked like a baby angel.

In that context, "angel" simply means "cute". It doesn't refer to a spiritual being.

In contrast, there were some thirty-five (35) uses of the word "magic". In one of those instances, Dumbledore says:
Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!

So, a use of the term in the poetic sense of the Yeats attribution. Of course that's not the only way it's used, but it does indicate a more layered understanding of the word ... and without any obvious religious references. So what are some of those other uses?

In one case there is a reference to Moaning Myrtle as a haunting spirit - a ghost. Do I believe such a thing is fallacious? Yes. Do I believe Myrtle is presented as a demon? No.

 

[nanookadenord]

See Post #43.

My answer doesn't change.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you did get my point. This is the first time you've acknowledged that. I don't see how refusing to acknowledge what I said is "talking to me".

So in what sense does Harry Potter use the word magic? Do you have anything to back up your view? Just because a word was used does not mean it was used in connection with your definition. Context is crucial in language.

I searched the first book (Sorcerer's Stone). I found zero (0) uses of the word "god", zero (0) uses of the word "demon", and one (1) use of the word "angel":
Aunt Petunia often said that Dudley looked like a baby angel.

In that context, "angel" simply means "cute". It doesn't refer to a spiritual being.

In contrast, there were some thirty-five (35) uses of the word "magic". In one of those instances, Dumbledore says:
Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!

So, a use of the term in the poetic sense of the Yeats attribution. Of course that's not the only way it's used, but it does indicate a more layered understanding of the word ... and without any obvious religious references. So what are some of those other uses?

In one case there is a reference to Moaning Myrtle as a haunting spirit - a ghost. Do I believe such a thing is fallacious? Yes. Do I believe Myrtle is presented as a demon? No.

You are not really answering my questions so as to resolve this. You are not tackling the heart of the issue here. You are playing word games and not really answering me.

One more time, and if I don't receive a direct answer to my questions (that would attempt to resolve this matter), I am moving on, my friend.

Do you believe that Harry Potter characters are operating by the power of the devil, or by the power of God?

Or do you believe Harry and company were operating by some kind of neutral or innocent power? If so, what was this power? Is it something we can see described in the Bible?

Please answer. If not, then I am moving on.

May God bless you.


Side Note:

Please take note, I have no problem discussing the word "magic" and it's usage, but you first have to address my original questions to you so as to resolves the heart of this matter. For anyone can fudge or play around with the usage of words. Just because a certain culture uses a word later for their own purpose of means does not change what the word originally meant or how that word is regarded today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My answer doesn't change.

Did you read my post #43?
If you do disagree, what part of the post do you disagree with?

 

[nanookadenord]

Did you read my post #43?
If you do disagree, what part of the post do you disagree with?

I did and at this point I am just going to agree to disagree. These always turn into circular arguments.

I know my mind isn't changing and neither is yours. Since I have prayed to God (and you seem to ignore that consistently) and was given the scriptures I mentioned, I don't have to listen to a viewpoint contrary to what God has revealed to me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did and at this point I am just going to agree to disagree. These always turn into circular arguments.

I know my mind isn't changing and neither is yours. Since I have prayed to God (and you seem to ignore that consistently) and was given the scriptures I mentioned, I don't have to listen to a viewpoint contrary to what God has revealed to me.

I am just having a hard time understanding your justification of your belief. What is the difference between kids fantasized or played around involving something inappropriate contentographic (Which is a fornication) vs. say them fantasizing about being witches and wizards? Are these not both grievous sins in the Bible that we should avoid? Are you saying it is impossible for children to be influenced to do these sins? I was influenced when I was a kid into wanting to dabble into witchcraft as the result of my fantasy role playing involving witchcraft. What do you say about that?

 

[nanookadenord]

I am just having a hard time understanding your justification of your belief. What is the difference between kids fantasized or played around involving something inappropriate contentographic (Which is a fornication) vs. say them fantasizing about being witches and wizards? Are these not both grievous sins in the Bible that we should avoid? Are you saying it is impossible for children to be influenced to do these sins? I was influenced into wanting to dabble into witchcraft as the result of my fantasy role playing involving witchcraft. What do you say about that?

Make believe wizards and witches is different than make believe inappropriate contentography. Hell, one is illegal and its actually real, and when it involves children it's even worse.

I answered about your last question in it may have been sin for you, but it doesn't mean it is for me. I have played video games for years, including games like COD, but it doesn't make me want to go out and kill people. My girlfriend's son has read Harry Potter since he could read along with many other fantasy books. He doesn't want to be any of those characters. He knows it's fiction and not real.

You had a pre-disposition to wanting to practice witchcraft. So, you, yourself shouldn't have done it. Just like others that would be in the same situation. It does not mean that all are pre-disposed.

 

[Resha Caner]

You are not really answering my questions so as to resolve this.

I did. You appear to want overly simple answers. The world is not a simple place and trying to make it so is wrong.

Do you believe that Harry Potter characters are operating by the power of the devil, or by the power of God?

Neither as far as I can tell.

Or do you believe Harry and company were operating by some kind of neutral or innocent power?

No. People are perfectly capable of having misguided intentions apart from the devil. Within the context of the story (something you seem reluctant to discuss), Rowling tries to portray Harry's magic as good. I think it is first important to understand the structure the author uses to establish that world view, and I commented on it in an earlier post. Putting the story aside, had she emphasized her base claim more, it would have been OK. Instead, her writing wandered all over the place and pulled from multiple cultural frameworks to create a haphazard mess.

So, in the end, I think the story is misguided.

LOTR and Star Wars would be good comparisons. George Lucas understood what Rowling did not, and synthesized multiple cultural frameworks into a seamless world view that is an artistic masterpiece (his stumbles in cinematic craft aside). Unfortunately, I don't like the theological implications of the result.

Tolkien took a different approach, and made Scandinavian mythology subject to a Christian world view to create what is both an artistic masterpiece and a theologically sound story.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Make believe wizards and witches is different than make believe inappropriate contentography. Hell, one is illegal and its actually real, and when it involves children it's even worse.

So it is based upon man's laws that we determine things instead of God's laws?
What if the children went farther than me? Meaning, what if they became an actual wizard or witch as a result of reading Harry Potter or playing role playing games?

I answered about your last question in it may have been sin for you, but it doesn't mean it is for me. I have played video games for years, including games like COD, but it doesn't make me want to go out and kill people. My girlfriend's son has read Harry Potter since he could read along with many other fantasy books. He doesn't want to be any of those characters. He knows it's fiction and not real.

I understand that people can resist these sinful things within fictional books, movies, and comics, etc. But others are not always so lucky. What of them? Do we ignore them and write off the dangers of the fiction that pushes sin today? Surely not.

You had a pre-disposition to wanting to practice witchcraft. So, you, yourself shouldn't have done it. Just like others that would be in the same situation. It does not mean that all are pre-disposed.

Actually, no. That's not true. I never desired to cast any real spells before until after I played role playing games that pushed that particular sin upon me. So there was no previous predisposition or desire within me to want to do that. It was the influence of the game. I enjoyed the game so much that it influenced me to think that way. I would not be the sole person alone on the planet that something similar like this has happened to. You basically want me to believe that no child whatsoever has been influenced by the magic in fiction to ever truly practice magic for real.

 

[nanookadenord]

So it is based upon man's laws that we determine things instead of God's laws?
What if the children went farther than me? Meaning, what if they became an actual wizard or witch as a result of reading Harry Potter or playing role playing games?



I understand that people can resist these sinful things within fictional books, movies, and comics, etc. But others are not always so lucky. What of them? Do we ignore them and write off the dangers of the fiction that pushes sin today? Surely not.



Actually, no. That's not true. I never desired to cast any real spells before until after I played role playing games that pushed that particular sin upon me. So there was no previous predisposition or desire within me to want to do that. It was the influence of the game. I enjoyed the game so much that it influenced me to think that way. I would not be the sole person alone on the planet that something similar like this has happened to. You basically want me to believe that no child whatsoever has been influenced by the magic in fiction to ever truly practice magic for real.

I am going to bow out now because you are reading things into my reply that I didn't say and even explained so that you wouldn't.

I am going to say though, there is no such thing as real wizards and witches. They may think they are and they may cast their spells, but it's not real.

With that, I am out. I'll see you in heaven!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did. You appear to want overly simple answers. The world is not a simple place and trying to make it so is wrong.



Neither as far as I can tell.



No. People are perfectly capable of having misguided intentions apart from the devil. Within the context of the story (something you seem reluctant to discuss), Rowling tries to portray Harry's magic as good. I think it is first important to understand the structure the author uses to establish that world view, and I commented on it in an earlier post. Putting the story aside, had she emphasized her base claim more, it would have been OK. Instead, her writing wandered all over the place and pulled from multiple cultural frameworks to create a haphazard mess.

So, in the end, I think the story is misguided.

LOTR and Star Wars would be good comparisons. George Lucas understood what Rowling did not, and synthesized multiple cultural frameworks into a seamless world view that is an artistic masterpiece (his stumbles in cinematic craft aside). Unfortunately, I don't like the theological implications of the result.

Tolkien took a different approach, and made Scandinavian mythology subject to a Christian world view to create what is both an artistic masterpiece and a theologically sound story.

I am going to bow out now because you are reading things into my reply that I didn't say and even explained so that you wouldn't.

I am going to say though, there is no such thing as real wizards and witches. They may think they are and they may cast their spells, but it's not real.

With that, I am out. I'll see you in heaven!

Well, I am sorry, my friends. Writers cannot change the reality of sin within our universe.

To quote another Christian on this matter,

"...in the "universe" of Dungeons and Dragons magic is neutral, and can be used by "good guys" or by "bad guys." It is like "The Force" in Star Wars. This magical morality pervades D&D, and it is utterly in opposition to the Word of God." ~ William Schnoebelen.

A writer cannot change the reality of sin (like the powers of God vs. the magical powers of the devil via by sorcerers, etc.). These real sins (Pushed within the fiction) can influence a person to actually do the real sin within our real world. That is why you cannot say that the "sin of witchcraft" is not really a sin of witchcraft by the intent of the author. It does not matter his intent. The author can no more change the reality of things than for rain not to be wet. There are always going to be real things in most stories on some level. These real things speak of our own real world and can influence us. An author is not God to be able to change the reality of sin in our world. His making a universe where he gets to redefine sin is not possible because God would have to change His mind so as to agree with them (But God is not going to do that because He is holy and good).

The problem is that these sins do not change (just because the author says these sins have changed in his universe) and the sins he promotes (that he says are not sins in his universe) can actually influence you to do these kind of sins in our real world. So again, just because somebody throws down the fantasy card, it does not undo the sin being pushed within it. Jesus said in Matthew 5:28-30 that if you look upon a woman in lust (Which is fantasy), your whole body can be cast into hell fire. So just the fantasy or the mind sin alone is enough to be condemned by the Lord Himself. So if we are fantasizing that the sin of witchcraft is okay (even though we may have no desire to do such a sin ourselves), we are temporarily approving of a real sin that God hates (Whether we want that to happen or not). For in order to enjoy a movie or book with magic in it, you have to think there is nothing wrong with this real sin that God condemns.