School faces lawsuit for making student remove 'only two genders' shirt: 'Censoring a 7th-grader'

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Bradskii

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Most people take drugs and get drunk on a daily basis? What?
I said a lot of people do it. It goes without saying. I didn't say on a daily basis.
Also, what would that prove even if that were the case? Is this website supposed to be a place for atheists to make hollow arguments from numbers? If so, it should probably be rebranded, because its name and themes seem to indicate otherwise.

Can you even access most of the forums here, given your non-religious affiliation?
It shows that there is a disproportionate concentration on sins that concern sex. It's always been the case. I have been a member of many Christian forums for very many years and that has always held to be true. I'm constantly told that all sins are treated equally but that is patently not true. And it holds true in the sections of this forum where more worldly matters, if I can put it like that, are discussed. And I have access to all sections of the forum although I cannot post in those that deal specifically with religious matters. But I check for all new topics each day and read a lot more than the ones in which I can actively partake. And what I have said is true throughout the forum.

And this isn't a hollow argument from numbers. It's pointing out a fact about this forum (and others) that people say that they treat sex outside marriage and murder and lying and homosexuality all the same (as if being gay and murder can be compared in any way). But they don't.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I'm constantly told that all sins are treated equally but that is patently not true

It's not Biblically accurate, that doesn't mean those who said it didn't truly believe it was accurate at the time they said it.

That aside, all sins can be forgiven but one, and that one isn't a sexual sin.

So long as someone is alive, there is still a chance they will be saved.

Let's face it, if God can save me there's no one He can't save.... True that.
 
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Ordinary Christian

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No she’s arguing that according to you only one side should be able to voice their opinion about it. That’s like saying hey let’s have a presidential election, everyone who wants to vote for Biden is allowed to vote but everyone against him is not allowed to vote.
I'm not a she. The pronouns I demand you use are this, that, and the other.
 
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Bradskii

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It's quite simple really. They put themselves in the forefront seeking huge amounts of attention, so of course that's what they get. Cause and effect.
It's a response to you.

Years ago in Sydney there was a march in support of gay rights. In this case, and at that time (1978) it was a protest against police brutality and general violence to gay people. A rejection of gay people's right to live a normal life in society. It was a small group. Most of them were arrested. A lot were beaten. Some by the police. All the arrested people had their names printed in the local paper. Which meant that some of them lost their jobs.

Now we, meaning society, have moved on. We watched the Gay Mardi Gras a few weeks ago. On national TV. Thousands took place. It's a direct continuation of that first protest march. The police marched in the parade. As did the defence forces. As did local and federal politicians. As did many religious figures. As did my daughter, together with her gay friends.

Because now it's a celebration. And not a protest. It celebrates that gay people are accepted in Sydney. In Australia. Yeah, there are exceptions, but they'll dwindle. The protests against the Mardi Gras are no longer, although they were front and centre back in the early days. So there were subsequent protests against those protesting against homosexuality. There was a natural reaction.

That's where we are now. You're seeing a reaction by the trans community (often supported by Joe and Jane Citizen), against their demonization by the Christian Right. Invariably by the Christian Right. But it will fade. And seeing someone marching through Sydney demanding rights for trans people will be as anochronistic as a march demanding same sex marriage.

Your numbers will decrease. As they did for general gay rights and then SSM. So you'll need to make more noise to be heard. So expect some fireworks for some time. But please don't tell me that you don't see which way the wind is blowing. I just wonder where the next barricades are going to be constructed. You're going to run out of causes. Where do you go then.?
 
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It's a response to you.

Years ago in Sydney there was a march in support of gay rights. In this case, and at that time (1978) it was a protest against police brutality and general violence to gay people. A rejection of gay people's right to live a normal life in society. It was a small group. Most of them were arrested. A lot were beaten. Some by the police. All the arrested people had their names printed in the local paper. Which meant that some of them lost their jobs.

Now we, meaning society, have moved on. We watched the Gay Mardi Gras a few weeks ago. On national TV. Thousands took place. It's a direct continuation of that first protest march. The police marched in the parade. As did the defence forces. As did local and federal politicians. As did many religious figures. As did my daughter, together with her gay friends.

Because now it's a celebration. And not a protest. It celebrates that gay people are accepted in Sydney. In Australia. Yeah, there are exceptions, but they'll dwindle. The protests against the Mardi Gras are no longer, although they were front and centre back in the early days. So there were subsequent protests against those protesting against homosexuality. There was a natural reaction.

That's where we are now. You're seeing a reaction by the trans community (often supported by Joe and Jane Citizen), against their demonization by the Christian Right. Invariably by the Christian Right. But it will fade. And seeing someone marching through Sydney demanding rights for trans people will be as anochronistic as a march demanding same sex marriage.

Your numbers will decrease. As they did for general gay rights and then SSM. So you'll need to make more noise to be heard. So expect some fireworks for some time. But please don't tell me that you don't see which way the wind is blowing. I just wonder where the next barricades are going to be constructed. You're going to run out of causes. Where do you go then.?
You and others ask why Christians give more attention to one area of sexual immortality than others. And the answer to that is because those who indulge in that area of sexual immortality demand huge amounts of attention. As for what you wrote, we have known that the world celebrates sin and is against us from the beginning. Read my profile signature.
 
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Bradskii

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You and others ask why Christians give more attention to one area of sexual immortality than others. And the answer to that is because those who indulge in that area of sexual immortality demand huge amounts of attention.
But a vastly greater amount of people indulge in sins which so many of you claim are equal. Alcohol and drugs kill more people than there are gay people. And...nothing. It's all about sex.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I have 5 grandchildren... So yes.. I'm right there with you.
Yeah and it’s not just about educating my kids but all kids. I don’t want anyone to go to hell. Unfortunately society keeps pushing the bar of morality lower & lower with each generation. If we’re not the voice of opposition then we’re part of the problem.
 
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dzheremi

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I said a lot of people do it. It goes without saying. I didn't say on a daily basis.

I'm sorry. I thought that when you wrote "Most people do these things on a daily basis", you were referring to getting drunk and taking drugs, since those are things that you mentioned in that paragraph.

It shows that there is a disproportionate concentration on sins that concern sex. It's always been the case. I have been a member of many Christian forums for very many years and that has always held to be true. I'm constantly told that all sins are treated equally but that is patently not true. And it holds true in the sections of this forum where more worldly matters, if I can put it like that, are discussed. And I have access to all sections of the forum although I cannot post in those that deal specifically with religious matters. But I check for all new topics each day and read a lot more than the ones in which I can actively partake. And what I have said is true throughout the forum.

Okay. With the very large and hopefully obvious caveat that Christian Forums is not Christianity itself, if I had to guess why you are seeing that and I am not, I would wager that the America-centric nature of many internet discussion forums (perhaps more so those dealing with Christianity than other topics, given how the USA is often argued to be unique in its religiosity among first world nations) predisposes the discussions here on CF towards a very stereotypical Evangelical Protestant viewpoint concerning the 'hierarchy' of sins that you're noticing, with sexual stuff being viewed as especially bad due to the conservative nature of the culture of the American South, which is the historical stronghold of this type of Christianity in the country. To the extent that they have been influenced greatly by the wider Evangelical Protestant culture, you may find this among some Catholics, as well, though Catholics have been historically much stronger against what they view as theological error than what has historically been viewed within their religion as error in behavior (this list of sexually active Roman Popes bearing witness; NB: the earliest evidence we have of celibacy being required of those in positions of clerical authority in the Roman Church comes from the canons of the Synod of Elvira, c. 305 AD, so of those listed at the link, this discipline would've conceivably only not applied to St. Peter himself).

For those of us who do not belong to western Christianity in particular, the laser-like focus on sexual sins that you have noted as being characteristic of internet forum Christianity is often much, much less prevalent. That's not to say that it's a free-for-all so long as you're not Catholic or Protestant (I would imagine that most Christians agree at least in theory on the impermissibility of sexual sins, even if in practice we often do not agree on all the particulars of what should or should not fall under that label), but the focus is demonstrably different. From memory, the only mention of virginity outside of mentions of the Virgin Mary herself that I can recall being present in the Coptic Orthodox liturgy, just for example, is one line of one short prayer in which we pray for "those who are in virginity" as but one group who are being prayed for, alongside the priests, the deacons, etc. This might make more sense when you consider that our fasting includes sexual abstinence for married couples (not at all times, though I'll admit I don't know the specifics here, since I am not married myself), and that Coptic people fast for over 210 days of the year. Other churches that are a bit less outwardly extreme in this regard would nevertheless have similarly pastoral approaches to sexual matters, i.e., dealing with the particulars of any person's sins (sexual or otherwise) in confession, rather than browbeating people more generally from the actual or imagined 'bully pulpit'. So our exhortations are generally less about "Hey, you over there, don't be gay" (although, yes, 'gayness' has never been accepted in traditional Christianity; it is found in the Desert Fathers, for instance, where it is treated as symptomatic of the spiritual unreadiness of the acolyte), and more reminders of the spiritual benefits and trials of fasting, how to overcome the passions more generally, etc. It's just like how we say (in the Coptic Orthodox Church) that you don't look at your neighbor's plate during the fast except to see that he has enough to eat. You don't look at your neighbor's personal life unless there's some way you can strengthen him in his fight against the passions, as you too will inevitably need his support during times when you yourself are struggling. Simply saying "Eww, gayness" or whatever misses the mark by quite a lot, and at any rate is not the type of response many mature Christians (not just Orthodox ones, either) would find appropriate to begin with.

And this isn't a hollow argument from numbers. It's pointing out a fact about this forum (and others) that people say that they treat sex outside marriage and murder and lying and homosexuality all the same (as if being gay and murder can be compared in any way). But they don't.

Arguing that you do thing X, and most people do thing X and don't see anything wrong with it sure seems like an argument from numbers to me.

Unrelated to that, I don't know that the idea of all sin being the same is ever properly fleshed out in conversations like this. Many people like to point to verses in the scriptures that talk about there being sin that leads unto death and sin that does not (following 1 John), but if we zoom out and take a bit more of a bird's eye view of things, we can certainly argue that in their nature if not in their effect, all sin involves a certain "missing the mark" (Gk. hamartia, which is often translated as English bibles as "sin") which at least allows them to be conceptualized in the same way. Does that mean that telling a 'little white lie' is the same as murder, or that homosexuality is akin to theft, or that any other combination of two things is necessarily functionally equivalent? No, because we can recognize different levels of severity. The person who lies infrequently and always confesses it and works to eliminate this flaw insofar as they can is not the same as the habitual liar who thinks nothing of telling untruths about anything and everything without a hint of remorse. But the infrequent liar is not 'better' than the more frequent liar, since they're both, y'know, liars. By the same token, I am not better or more holy or whatever than my neighbor just because I may sin in a different way than they do. There are no bonus points offered for just not 'being gay', as though that's some sort of great accomplishment for a person who does not have that proclivity in the first place. We are both sinners, both in need of forgiveness and healing, both needing to make the internal changes necessary to truly confront our problems and overcome them.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I'm not a she. The pronouns I demand you use are this, that, and the other.
I sincerely apologize. I looked at your profile and didn’t see one or the other and knew that I was bound to be wrong no matter which one I chose. Sorry about that.
 
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Larnievc

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Just because some people like to indulge in ridiculousness doesn’t mean that I have to go along with it, condone it, or put up with it.
But you could think it none of your business. When you stop doing that the problem resolves itself.

The big difference is Christians keep banging the drum that everyone should live their way and then get annoyed when people tell them to clear off.
 
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Larnievc

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Larnievc

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HIV for one thing and then there’s a place called hell on top of that.
The first affects everyone the second ONLY APPLIES TO CHRISTIANS!

Matthew 10:14 KJV
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
 
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Bradskii

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Sexual immortality is glorified celebrated and propagated to such a high degree, and out of that LGBTQQIP2SAA+ is like a Las Vegas neon sign with flashing light bulbs.
I'm watching the footy on TV at the moment. Not seen anything promoting sex or any variation of lgbt. But I see a lot of promotion of booze. And gambling. I only know of 3 or 4 pubs in the whole of Sydney that don't have poker machines. Most sports here are sponsored by beer companies. All sports on TV will have a promo that will give the odds for one team against the other.

My son-in-law works for the biggest online gambling company on the planet. They have a foothold in the US. In a few years it's possible that anyone in the US with an internet connection will be able to bet on anything, anywhere at anytime. You could do it on your mobile sitting on the bus. I can do that now from this laptop. I can bet everything I have in the bank that my credit card will access on the result of this game I'm watching right at this moment (it has ten minutes to go) and lose it all.

Booze and gambling together kills more people, ruins more families and destroys more lives than you could possibly imagine. And what are you worried about? Someone who is trans using the wrong toilet. A teenager transgender girl running in a college level meet. Someone who wants to be called she instead of he.

It's beyond a joke. It's beyond satire. It is, again, embarrassing.
 
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Larnievc

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HIV for one thing and then there’s a place called hell on top of that. And I get it, you don’t believe in hell but NEWSFLASH welcome to Christian forums, a Christian website where people actually believe in the Bible. So while you may not believe in hell, don’t expect people on a Christian website to not believe in it as well. That would be like me going to an atheist websites and expecting people to believe in Christ.
Please don't pretend that that is what I'm saying. I'm not talking about this website. I'm taking about the outside world where most people are not Christian and don't want busy bodies poking their noses into their business.
 
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Larnievc

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When I was a practicing Muslim I had no general issues with the killing of homosexuals and many other beliefs that are antithetical to Christianity...
Wait, your internal sense of right and wrong did not tell you killing people was wrong?
 
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Please don't pretend that that is what I'm saying. I'm not talking about this website. I'm taking about the outside world where most people are not Christian and don't want busy bodies poking their noses into their business.

Those who make their business public open themselves to criticism.
 
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Bradskii

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Okay. With the very large and hopefully obvious caveat that Christian Forums is not Christianity itself, if I had to guess why you are seeing that and I am not, I would wager that the America-centric nature of many internet discussion forums (perhaps more so those dealing with Christianity than other topics, given how the USA is often argued to be unique in its religiosity among first world nations) predisposes the discussions here on CF towards a very stereotypical Evangelical Protestant viewpoint concerning the 'hierarchy' of sins that you're noticing, with sexual stuff being viewed as especially bad due to the conservative nature of the culture of the American South, which is the historical stronghold of this type of Christianity in the country.
It's Christians in general. Primarily from the US and in particular the Christian Right. And as this is predominantly a forum populated by those from the US my statements are generally, but not specifically, about the US. Which, because of the size and influence of the country, impacts on the rest of the world. And if it was simply churches that were pushing this particular barrow then it wouldn't concern me at all. But it has infiltrated, and to an extent, dictated the direction of US political debate.
So our exhortations are generally less about "Hey, you over there, don't be gay"...and more reminders of the spiritual benefits and trials of fasting, how to overcome the passions more generally, etc
If that was all it was, I wouldn't complain. 'I don't think you should do that' is a lot different to 'You must not do that!'
Arguing that you do thing X, and most people do thing X and don't see anything wrong with it sure seems like an argument from numbers to me.
It's definitely an argument from numbers. But not a hollow one. If a lot of people do X, it's not a fallacy to point out that 'a lot of people do X'.
Unrelated to that, I don't know that the idea of all sin being the same is ever properly fleshed out in conversations like this.
Impossible for that to happen. Because the obvious rejoinder to 'This is worse than that' is 'So this isn't so bad?' Can you imagine anyone on this forum saying 'Well....yeah'.
 
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BNR32FAN

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But you could think it none of your business. When you stop doing that the problem resolves itself.

The big difference is Christians keep banging the drum that everyone should live their way and then get annoyed when people tell them to clear off.
I think it’s none of my business what those people do, I don’t think it’s none of my business that the schools are condoning such behavior.
 
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Larnievc

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