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Scholars on BOTH sides agree - Saturday is the seventh day - the Sabbath of Exodus 20

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by BobRyan, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You simply do not get it Bob. I really feel for you bound up in a legalistic system that will not allow you to think on your own. From now on I will not be trying to convince you we all are new covenant Christians, but I will be posting, just like I always have , the real truth and certainly not what you are posting.

    Jesus is enough!
     
  2. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Even when Christians set out to worship on the Sabbath, they are not truly "keeping the Sabbath." To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with certain regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

    If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings that went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to Israel. If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person say they truly keep the Sabbath when they only keep part of it?

    If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh-day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as Israel did in the OT, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under the Mosaic regulations.

    We are not to get hung up on the Sabbath day, which is a shadow of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ (Colossians 2:16-17).
     
  3. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Acts 2:38 “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Romans 6:2 How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death


    1 John 3 New King James Version (NKJV)

    1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

    4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

    7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

    13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

    16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

    18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave use commandment.

    24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

    John 15:10 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

    My commandments: 1 John 3:23 believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another

    Father’s commandments: The Ten Commandments

    20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

    2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

    3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

    4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

    7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

    8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

    12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

    13 “You shall not murder.

    14 “You shall not commit adultery.

    15 “You shall not steal.

    16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


    Exodus 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments

    Exodus 31:13 (sign of covenant) ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

    1 Corinthians 11:25 (sign of NEW covenant) In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”



     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Good texts... of course.

    so also Daniel 9:20
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Welcome to the thread! Did you agree with the OP on which day of our week was given as the Bible Sabbath in Exodus 20:11 and in the days of Christ?

    And... do you remember what the Bible says?

    "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 9
    "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23 for all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth.
    Acts 18:4 EVERY Sabbath - BOTH Jews AND gentiles attend the synagogues for Gospel preaching

    Mark 7:6-13 that we not downsize any of God's commandments.
    and that we love God with all our heart Matt 22
    "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
    "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

    CHRIST is the one speaking the TEN Commandments at Sinai (see Hebrews 8:6-10)
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Even the majority of pro-sunday scholars point out that all TEN of the TEN commandments still remain - and are written on the heart under the Jeremiah 31 "New Covenant".


    Not so - since in Hebrews 7 we are told that the earthly priesthood ended at the cross.
    And in Hebrew 10:4-12 we are told that the animal sacrifice ended at the cross.
    And in Hebrews 4 we are told "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

    Bible details that even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit to ( a case where BOTH sides agree on this point) - which means "it just does not get any easier than this"

    That would be more "civil laws" only valid under a Theocracy.

    The weekly Sabbath as given in Genesis 2:1-3 -- without animal sacrifices - given as a "memorial" of the sinless past event - not a shadow of a future death.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Thanks for your 'feelings'
     
  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    What you think I also need to confess the sins of the Jews? I gave you many texts, but it doesn't seem you understood them.

    I already told you I already did that when I repented in 1977 and was filled with the Spirit. Jesus has already cleansed me from all my sin, and I am dead to sin. Not just positionally as some teach, literally. I hate sin. It sounds like you do not believe the apostles. Many think it is impossible. But they are only going by their own personal experience, or lack thereof.
     
  9. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    The actual Sabbath day was sundown on our Friday to sundown on our Saturday. Christians began to worship God on Sunday (the Lord's Day), because the first day of the week became associated with Christ's resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; Revelation 1:10). We see from Acts 20:7 and I Corinthians 16:1-3 that the Church gathered together on the first day of every week in order to "break bread," and also to take up a "collection for the saints." Nowhere in the New Testament is the Church commanded to gather together to worship on the Jewish seventh day Sabbath.

    Coming to worship God from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath (Isaiah 66:23) is not the same as keeping the sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations that was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36; Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13).

    Although the Torah was read every Saturday in the synagogues, the early Gentile Christians were never commanded to be circumcised, or to rest on Saturday as the Jews were (Acts 15:1-21).

    *In Galatians 4:9-11, the Apostle Paul said "...You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."

    *In Romans 14:1-23, the Apostle Paul says: "... One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.." In other words, for the Christian, the Apostle is saying that no day is to be regarded holier than another.

    *In Colossians 2:16-17, the Apostle Paul also said 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

    *That would be strange for Paul to say that if keeping the sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations that was part of a covenant with Israel was binding on Christians under the new covenant. The sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic covenant.

    To "keep" (Greek - tereo) His commandments means to keep, guard, observe, watch over, and not sinless, perfect obedience to the 10 commandments 100% of the time. Are you trusting in your best efforts to perfectly obey all 10 commandments 100% of the time as the means of your salvation? Is that why you are turning keeping the sabbath day into a legalistic prescription?

     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Welcome to the thread! Did you agree with the OP on which day of our week was given as the Bible Sabbath in Exodus 20:11 and in the days of Christ?

    And... do you remember what the Bible says?

    "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 9
    "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23 for all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth.
    Acts 18:4 EVERY Sabbath - BOTH Jews AND gentiles attend the synagogues for Gospel preaching

    Mark 7:6-13 that we not downsize any of God's commandments.
    and that we love God with all our heart Matt 22
    "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
    "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

    CHRIST is the one speaking the TEN Commandments at Sinai (see Hebrews 8:6-10)

    That is true. I shorten that concept in the title - to make a direct point. But as you say the Bible 7th day starts at sundown on Friday.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    In ALL of scripture (including your references above) we do not find the phrase you just said - "the Church gathered together on the first day of every week in order to break bread,"

    Don't you find that "just a little" bit a problem given that it is what you "need" to believe in that regard??

    What is more - you have several "week day 1" references in your list -- which is good because the NT never calls Sabbath merely "week day 7" nor does it ever call week-day-1 the Sabbath, or the Lord's Day. Nor does it say "every week day 1 we met as was our custom".

    Nor does it say "every week day 1 we had Gospel preaching for both Jews and Gentiles" -- you only find that sort of thing for Sabbath - Acts 18:4.

    Don't you find that "just a little" bit of a problem? A wake up call?

    1. NOWHERE in the NT do we find the command "do not take God's name in vain" - a point that means nothing in support of deleting that commandment.
    2. "THERE REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4 we DO find in the NT

    Another great "quote of you" --- don't you wish you had an actual scripture that said that - given that Lev 23:1-4 actually says the weekly Sabbath is the day to gather in worship -- just as we see happening in that Isaiah 63 quote??

    Because NO gentiles were EVER commanded to be circumcised in the OT or in the NT -- according to scripture, only there were some Christian Jews were 'made up' the idea as Acts 15 points out.

    1 Cor 7:19 contrasting ceremonial laws like Circumcision -- vs == the Commandments of God "what MATTERS is keeping the Commandments of God"

    Nothing in Acts 15 says "not to rest" on the Bible Sabbath - RATHER the argument is made that the CHRISTIANS are "hearing Moses preached every Sabbath in the synagogues" as we SEE in Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath" - and in that case "THE GOSPEL" is being preached from "scripture" - every Sabbath. But even so - James' argument in Acts 15 is that the gentiles are already IN the synagogues hearing scripture every Sabbath.

    Galatians 4 is about worshiping on pagan days - and even one day of such worship is condemned.
    Romans 14 is about worship on Bible approved annual holy days - where the condemnation of even one of them -- is condemned by Paul.

    Paul says: "... One man regards one day above another, another regards every day "

    "He who OBSERVES the day observes it to the Lord" -- thus one OBSERVES one above the others in Lev 23 while another man OBSERVES all of them.

    That is "protected worship" according to Paul in Romans 14.

    While keeping even ONE of the pagan days in Gal 4 - is outright condemned by Paul.

    In Coil 2 Paul says this of judging others - and the annual "shadow" sabbaths given in animal sacrifices pointing forward to Christ --

    *In Colossians 2:16-17, the Apostle Paul also said 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

    In Col 2
    the defrauding and judging is based on the "made up" - commandments of men

    18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God. 20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I agree with all of that - but it did not happen in the NT - no bible writer affirms it as a good idea.

    Now let's do a little experiment. and Exercise - assuming you are genuinely comfortable with your position.

    Let's list all the advantages of choosing the Bible texts over the tradition you suggest.

    1. All the Bible texts would then be on your side of the discussion, God's Sabbath - as I have shown
    2. EVEN the majority of pro-Sunday scholars would admit to the Bible point that ALL Ten of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NT.
    3. ALL NT texts would affirm your view the the 7th day is no common day in the NT - but rather God's Holy Sabbath - always referring to it as Sabbath and never as week-day-1.
    4. Those that opposed your view would be stuck with "week-day-1" as the only designation for Sunday in all of the NT..

    Now lets list all the advantages to rejecting the NT statements affirming the Sabbath
    1. Man made tradition would be on your side - hands down.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  13. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Hi, I like your post and everyone, except Bob and Messianics agree. It was good for you to point out that the sign of the Old Covenant was the Sabbath. Do you know what the sign of our New Covenant is?
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Because we enjoy all the Bible "details".

    And of course -- even the Pro-Sunday scholars admit that all TEN of the TEN commandments are included in the moral Law of God - the "Commandments of God" -- written on the heart under the New Covenant.

    So then "not just Bob and Messianics" -- obviously.

    It includes these groups as well -

    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
    D.L. Moody,
    R.C Sproul,
    Matthew Henry,
    Thomas Watson
    Eastern Orthodox Catechism
    The Catholic Catechism.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Focus on the point please.
     
  16. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Who all go to church on Sunday. Yes, thank you.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    You are welcome. When BOTH sides of the debate can admit to the same obvious Bible detail... well "it just does not GET any easier than that"!
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Since all agree that Saturday is the Sabbath - do all also agree that the Ten Commandments must be deleted in order to get around the Bible Sabbath? OR can they simply be "downsized"??

    What does James 2 say?
     
  19. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    It's painfully obvious that you are thoroughly indoctrinated into SDA doctrine and are hung up on legalism. Good day and God bless.

    The Truth about the Seventh-day Adventist Church

    Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I agree with all of that - but it did not happen in the NT - no bible writer affirms it as a good idea.

    Now let's do a little experiment. and Exercise - assuming you are genuinely comfortable with your position.

    Let's list all the advantages of choosing the Bible texts over the tradition you suggest.

    1. All the Bible texts would then be on your side of the discussion, God's Sabbath - as I have shown
    2. EVEN the majority of pro-Sunday scholars would admit to the Bible point that ALL Ten of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NT.
    3. ALL NT texts would affirm your view the the 7th day is no common day in the NT - but rather God's Holy Sabbath - always referring to it as Sabbath and never as week-day-1.
    4. Those that opposed your view would be stuck with "week-day-1" as the only designation for Sunday in all of the NT..

    Now lets list all the advantages to rejecting the NT statements affirming the Sabbath
    1. Man made tradition would be on your side - hands down.

    I find your logic "illusive" when you use that sort of response as the "solution" for the actual fact that your own pro-Sunday scholars admit that God's Ten Commandments (all TEN ... not a downsized nine) are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.

    (unless of course you are now taking an even MORE extreme out-on-limb position about the majority of pro-Sunday scholars getting their doctrinal guidance from SDA scholars. Is that your point???)

    essentially I am pointing out 'the easy part" where BOTH sides agree when it comes to all TEN of the TEN commandments included in the LAW of God.

    So obvious a Bible detail - that even these pro-Sunday groups agree

    The Baptist Confession of Faith,
    the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
    D.L. Moody,
    R.C Sproul,
    Matthew Henry,
    Thomas Watson
    Eastern Orthodox Catechism
    The Catholic Catechism
     
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