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Scholars on BOTH sides agree - Saturday is the seventh day - the Sabbath of Exodus 20

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by BobRyan, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes, false premise. False thoughts. False accusation.

    "You have no idea!" (sorry, the wounds are so much deeper than once thought)
     
  2. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    If we are only not under the condemnation of the law, then that would mean we can break the commandments and not receive any punishment.
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    footnote for future followup , hypothetically perhaps, if recognizing that popes, bishops, priests, pastors, reverends , members , congregants, teachers, sunday school teachers,
    educators, politicians, doctors, governors, evangelists, prophets, saints, etc etc etc are breaking the commandments every day and
    [apparently] do "not receive any punishment.".

    How can your church provide reconciliation to YHWH for those anywhere or everywhere who sin every day ?
     
  4. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    This is what I was responding to as him not believing the Word of God that says it IS possible to not sin.

    "
    You must have made selfish choices at times rather than loving your neighbor equally. We all do. You are not perfect. The spirit part of you is cleansed, but you still have the flesh unless you can't see yourself in the mirror? And maybe your should try to look in the mirror because one of the aspects of Spiritual Maturity is being honest and willing to look in the mirror at our sins. We live in a sinful world. You mean to tell me that Christianity has a spotless history? Or maybe just the people who thought they were Christians did all the bad stuff?
    If we did, others would not hold our tarnished past sins against us. They would just look at us and see Christ. Are you a pure reflection of Jesus? You deceive yourself."

    So if you and BobR believe I made a false accusation show me?
     
  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    What in the world are you talking about, Jeff. I was responding to a post by BobR where he said we are not under the "CONDEMNATION" of the law, not the law itself. So I asked him a question, about what he believes.
     
  6. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Do you know him?
     
  7. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    It looks to me that I'm the one being attacked by you and Jeff. That is very interesting to me.

    Exactly what was my false accusation and against whom? It appears to me you two are falsely accusing me!
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  8. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Bob.

    I am not going uphill, just ignoring the tradition of men.
     
  9. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Bob.
    Exactly, the law was the law, Paul needed to comply because Timothy's mother was Jewish.
    Correct.

    Though Paul would not allow Gentiles to follow the law and be circumcised.

    Galatians 6:13
    For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.

    The Jews were under the law, the Gentiles were not under the law.

    There is nothing in the Bible about Gentiles needing to circumcised -- either OT or NT.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1. True - even after the cross
    2. And the Law did not require Titus to be circumcised - he was not a Jew. But it would be "sin" for Titus to break the TEN commandments "still". Thus "no taking God's name in vain" for Titus.

    1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing - but what MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD"

    False - since no Law required gentiles to be circumcised. Paul's actions were fully consistent with God's Law for both Jews and Gentiles.

    Thus "no taking God's name in vain" for Titus.

    True - but neither Jew nor gentile were supposed to break the commandments of God - neither were allowed to take God's name in vain.

    The Ten Commandments apply to all mankind - as even your own pro-Sunday scholars affirm.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Mark 7:6-13 the "traditions of men" tries to set aside one of the "Commandments of God"...

    details matter.

    Follow the Bible at least on the easy and obvious points - so clear in the Bible that BOTH sides can see them clearly.

    When your own pro-Sunday scholars are refuting the false doctrine that the TEN Commandments are not the moral law of God for all mankind ... so not "just me" and not "Just the Bible"... what remains to be confused about???

    There are many areas of debate that we could be having where BOTH sides do not agree... you are picking the one Bible detali that is soooo obvious Bible scholars on BOTH sides admit to it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I just asked.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Totally false.

    As I have pointed out many times so far (and we both know it) in Romans 3 - Paul uses the term "under the law" to mean "under the condemnation of the law" and in Romans 3 he applies it to the "whole world" and "everyone with a mouth" -- (unless you are now offering us the wild speculation that gentiles don't have mouths -- or that they are not in the world--- is this really where you are going?????)

    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

    It is a sweeping statement about all mankind (not just Jews) - being "under the law" - which Paul clearly uses to mean "under the condemnation of the LAW as sinners".

    And what Law is that? it is the one that defines what sin is - the one that includes the TEN Commandments.

    A glaringly obvious bible detail so obvious - that even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholars admit to it.

    When a Bible detail is so obvious that BOTH sides admit to it -- well... "it just does not GET any easier than this!!" -- just stating the obvious.

    Hi David -

    Well first of all it is Romans 3:19-20 ... not just 20

    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

    19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

    Indeed. The "Whole world" as the text says ... and "every mouth". All have sinned ... all need the Gospel

    Not the wild speculation of "just Jews"

    Here again we have such a Bible101 basic detail that even Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the debate admit to this Bible detail.

    Just does not GET any easier than this.

    ===================

    What is more the conclusion about that LAW (that even you admit is including Ex 20) is this "Do we then make VOID the LAW by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31.

    Because it is that LAW that Jeremiah says is "written on the heart and mind" in Jeremiah 31:31-33

    Not under the condemnation of the LAW means "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 EVEN for Christians.

    Not under the condemnation of the LAW means "not sinning because whom you obey that is your master" Romans 6

    Not under the condemnation of the LAW means "WE ESTABLISH the LAW by our faith" Rom 3:31

    Not under the condemnation of the LAW means that it is the "LOST who do not and indeed CAN not submit to the LAW of God" while the saints FULFILL it. Romans 8:4-10

    So the wild speculation "not under the condemnation of the law means sinning without consequence" is proven in the NT to be false.

    What is more - it is the very false accusation about the Gospel that Paul refutes.

    As we both already know. (thus once again I argue for the clearly obvious point that BOTH sides already agree to )
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    True - but I never claim that the Bible is wrong in that regard.

    What I would claim is that no Bible writer says "I have ceased to sin".

    Nor does any Bible writer state "you must always sin" or "you can never stop sinning"

    Both are true.
     
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    Those on the list I mentioned are enemies of Christ you say?
    They devoted their lives to Christ. Judge not lest you be judged ... and it will come back to you in equal measure - watch yourself.
    >But thanks for giving another example of Christians who sin and are not loving towards their neighbors.
     
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    We know what sin is because of the Law, without the Law, there is no sin.
    The WORLD IS UNDER THE LAW, we are not of the world, we are in it, not part of it, aliens.
    The Law was a tutor, we no longer need a tutor. However it is there for the world. It was there for humans to see their sin, struggle to keep it and realize they couldn't and failed. It was there for Christ to fulfill it for us.
    We are in Christ, He is our rest, our Sabbath. In Him and only in Him can we experience peace and rest and holiness, not because it is a particular day of the week. Jews did not have peace on the Sabbath, IT WAS A BURDEN TO THEM, THEY STRUGGLED TRYING TO KEEP OVER 250 SABBATH LAWS AND FAILED. Christ came, the Lord of the Sabbath and did what? He worked on the Sabbath, healed on the Sabbath, His disciples picked grain and Jesus did what ... rebuked the Pharisees for their judgment against them JUST AS SDA DO TO THE REST OF US.
    You say what matters is "keeping the commandments". No, Jesus fulfilled that part for us BECAUSE WE COULD NOT KEEP ANY ONE OF THEM -- H E L L O!
    You mentioned Hebrews 4? That reiterates that Jesus is our rest that we entered into.
    But hey, you go ahead and try to keep the Sabbath holy ... and you will fail as the Jews did and everyone who ever has tried!
     
  17. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    There you go, a great pastor, confessing his sin. My pastor would do the same as well. I myself went to a Four Square Church for a dozen years in Hermosa Beach, not such much charismatic but we believed in the spiritual gifts. The best pastors were the ones who honestly confessed their flaws and struggles, a daily task of dying to yourself and dying to your old ways. I don't recall any ever saying it all disappeared at conversion. Spiritually yes, but not in their flesh.
     
  18. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I don't know about that. John was pretty clear and I would assume he knew also by experience.

    "6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

    Of course, I imagine he was pretty old when he wrote that and had perfected years of overcoming sin. The same with Paul.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Then you have only your presumption and inference for you idea that John went around saying "I have ceased to sin"
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- that is clear
    "These things I write to you that you sin NOT.." 1 John 2:1 - that is clear

    And apparently on this thread we have agreement that Saturday is the Sabbath as found in the Bible in places like Exodus 20:11 and in the Gospels and in Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath"
     
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