Schism?

[Daniel9v9]

I've just caught wind of some whispering of a possible schism in the Roman Catholic Church. Is there any truth to this at all? If there is, do you imagine this to be a major schism or something more like a break-off body comparable to the Old Catholics or Independent Catholics? What's the current climate in the RCC like?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It's a rift within the church yes. This rift goes through the church front the top and down. Will this rift actually manifest itself as a actual schism at some point? Hard to say, but it's pretty cold between the different fractions of clergy aswell as laity.

 

[football5680]

There won't be a schism but there is a divide in the Church. The modernists will be rooted out in due time because their beliefs have no basis in Catholicism, and unity will return. We just have to weather the storm for a few years.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

It’s a rift, mostly on message boards. It’s not a real thing.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It’s a rift, mostly on message boards. It’s not a real thing.

Nah, Schneider and Vigano is no worry. I'm not mocking, I agree. This is why each and one of us have to pray for wisdom to discern for ourself.

That being said, there are serious tensions within each and every parish I've attended and it hasnt been my fault more than in one of them.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I've just caught wind of some whispering of a possible schism in the Roman Catholic Church. Is there any truth to this at all? If there is, do you imagine this to be a major schism or something more like a break-off body comparable to the Old Catholics or Independent Catholics? What's the current climate in the RCC like?

If there is an official schism it will start in Germany led by German bishops and cardinals who want a version of Catholicism where Scripture matters less than conforming to the spirit of the age. It would be a left wing schism by people who want to unbind themselves from the Catholic Church so they can have a liberal religion where sin is no big deal and they can try to be 'relevant' to more people. As it is the Catholic Church in Germany and German speaking lands is very irrelevant, mostly at the making of these same German bishops and cardinals. There is a remnant of faith in Germany, but it is more Traditional, more Scriptural, more in tune with the Catholic Church of the ages. If a schism happens in Germany, these will remain Catholic but the others will be some new sort of 'German Christian', as was tried 70 years ago.

There is a theory that such a schism will not actually happen, but that pope Francis will bend to accept whatever the Germans demand, married priests, woman priests, free intercommunion with every kind of Protestant, remarriage after a valid marriage that ends in divorce, marriage of LGBTQWERTY folks, etc, as long as that just applies in Germany.

Lots of us plain Catholics are dismayed by what pope Francis has already done, but we are not for the most part looking for schism. We want to keep the Catholic Church as a place that is still Catholic in teaching. Some people are leaving to be Orthodox or whatever, but every place has it's problems, even if they are not always apparent at the surface. For example, the idea of tolerating the remarriage of someone already validly married who divorces, that is an Orthodox idea but it is contrary to the words of Christ.

The current climate in the Catholic Church is tense. If you want to help, you can pray for us.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Nah, Schneider and Vigano is no worry. I'm not mocking, I agree. This is why each and one of us have to pray for wisdom to discern for ourself.

That being said, there are serious tensions within each and every parish I've attended and it hasnt been my fault more than in one of them.

Schnieder, Vigano, Burke, Sarah, they are not the instigators of schism. They will assist in the repairs when the time comes. Their roles right now are to lead us to stand for truth, to persevere, and to pray. Not to rip up the Church. Luther did that. He had the good idea to protest the selling of indulgences, but threw the baby out with the bathwater eventually in what is now a 500 year debacle.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Thank you for the insight all. I can get a sense of what’s going on and I sympathise and I pray for true unity in Jesus Christ our Lord. And whatever happens, we can take comfort in knowing that the Church will stand until the end.

Blessings +

 

[Michie]

Pope Francis and Schism - The Catholic Thing

 

[Gnarwhal]

I've just caught wind of some whispering of a possible schism in the Roman Catholic Church. Is there any truth to this at all? If there is, do you imagine this to be a major schism or something more like a break-off body comparable to the Old Catholics or Independent Catholics? What's the current climate in the RCC like?

Are all/most of us alarmed by what's been allowed in the name of ecumenicalism? Yeah I think so. But I think only the fringiest Catholics, and those who were already flirting with apostasy, are the only ones suggesting schism. The rest of us are looking to bear down, clamp on to Tradition, and pray that Francis' successor is one in the tradition of Pope St. Pius X so we as the Church can get back to business.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Are all/most of us alarmed by what's been allowed in the name of ecumenicalism? Yeah I think so. But I think only the fringiest Catholics, and those who were already flirting with apostasy, are the only ones suggesting schism. The rest of us are looking to bear down, clamp on to Tradition, and pray that Francis' successor is one in the tradition of Pope St. Pius X so we as the Church can get back to business.

Apostasy is a strong word and should be used carefully.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Apostasy is a strong word and should be used carefully.

Carefully, as with schism and heresy. We do nobody any favors when we rush to use any of those words. They may apply, but we should not rush to use them for fun.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Pope Francis and Schism - The Catholic Thing

For those who see no evil, hear no evil, it seems those at the highest levels of the church hear the rumblings. If it were just a few chat forums then why would the Pontiff spend time discussing it?

The rift is real and will get worse. File my post away and let’s revisit it one year from now. Darkness comes in shades.

 

[HardHead]

Regarding the discussion of the German church and its apparent direction, it seems to me that the Anglican church is going though a similar challenge right now (or has very recently). To my knowledge, some groups are indeed splitting from the main Anglican communion. My point is that there is certainly a precedent for a split in modern times along similar lines as mentioned above.

If the pressure continues to increase, could a Particular Church (separately administered and also with its own rite) be set up to accommodate the German direction? It could perhaps work in that manner if the communion with the rest of the church remains intact in some manner. I am not sure what the requirements for that would be.

 

[chevyontheriver]

For those who see no evil, hear no evil, it seems those at the highest levels of the church hear the rumblings. If it were just a few chat forums then why would the Pontiff spend time discussing it?

The rift is real and will get worse. File my post away and let’s revisit it one year from now. Darkness comes in shades.

It's on a trajectory to get worse before hopefully then coming around to get better again. Who could have forseen this ten years ago? Even five years ago.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Carefully, as with schism and heresy. We do nobody any favors when we rush to use any of those words. They may apply, but we should not rush to use them for fun.

I just find apostasy to be a rather tasteless word to use when describing people who leave Catholicism, but remain christian elsewhere. It might be because I came from "elsewhere" myself when I became catholic.
I've always been Christian and I feel its depressing and derogatory to speak of protestants and orthodox in such terms.

If I give up on the church I'll not be leaving Christ, but the church. To frame it differently is dumbing the whole matter down.

 

[Lady Bug]

I'm scared to say this because I don't think it's obedient to the rules but I'll say it in a way that is hopefully not against the rules. I'm not declaring the "sedes" to be right but I'm beginning to see why they say that the Pope isn't the real Pope

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

I just find apostasy to be a rather tasteless word to use when describing people who leave Catholicism, but remain christian elsewhere. It might be because I came from "elsewhere" myself when I became catholic.
I've always been Christian and I feel its depressing and derogatory to speak of protestants and orthodox in such terms.

If I give up on the church I'll not be leaving Christ, but the church. To frame it differently is dumbing the whole matter down.

Absolutely agree. I consider any Christian that follows Christ to the best of their ability to be a brother or sister in Christ.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Regarding the discussion of the German church and its apparent direction, it seems to me that the Anglican church is going though a similar challenge right now (or has very recently). To my knowledge, some groups are indeed splitting from the main Anglican communion. My point is that there is certainly a precedent for a split in modern times along similar lines as mentioned above.

If the pressure continues to increase, could a Particular Church (separately administered and also with its own rite) be set up to accommodate the German direction? It could perhaps work in that manner if the communion with the rest of the church remains intact in some manner. I am not sure what the requirements for that would be.

Anglicanism is a loose grouping of diverse and often contradictory belief systems under one name united by language and not much more. Catholicism has been up to now a grouping of diverse cultures with a common belief in different languages and liturgies. There really isn't room for national groups that differ in faith and morals.

The Anglicans have had a huge leftward lurch over the past 50 years. The US Episcopalians ended up under censure from Canterbury, while African Anglicans have not liberalized, have grown, and now are a force to be reckoned with. Canterbury tries to hold the whole mess together, but it really is several religions under one name, a liberal Protestant one, a conservative Protestant one, and a sort of Catholic one, that have little use for each other.

Some might like that as a model for Catholicism, where we tolerate all manner of doctrinal and moral contradiction. But Catholics typically don't think that way. We expect our teaching to persist and not be different here and there.

 

[HardHead]

Anglicanism is a loose grouping of diverse and often contradictory belief systems under one name united by language and not much more.

That may be a bit harsh but the point that it can be confusing is a good one.

Some might like that as a model for Catholicism, where we tolerate all manner of doctrinal and moral contradiction. But Catholics typically don't think that way. We expect our teaching to persist and not be different here and there.

That is exactly what I'm asking. Making room for something like the Anglican methodology seems difficult to fathom in a Catholic sense. Even so, the parallels are there from how I understand the current happenings.