Scattershooting about the Rapture, Harvests, Antichrist etc.

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 150:

Revelation tells us the marriage and supper will be IN HEAVEN before the white horse descent to earth.

In Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31). For the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

iamlamad said in post 150:

Keep your blinders on, get left behind.

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 150:

Jesus is coming FIRST FOR His bride, and again WITH His bride.

See post 140.

iamlamad said in post 150:

WHAT is the Day of the Lord?

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 150:

When Jesus comes it will be a day of BRIGHTNESS.

Not at first (Matthew 24:29-30).

iamlamad said in post 150:

The TRUTH is, Paul tells us his rapture comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord and as the trigger for that day.

Actually, he doesn't.

iamlamad said in post 150:

Joel 2
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the first century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) which won't start until sometime after the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For (again) the future day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring only to Zion, the holy mountain, and the land, can mean that it's referring only to a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am", H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", i.e. distributed into ranks (Hebrew "chatsats", H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are so small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets, H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer to only a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts and other plant-destroying insects which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the first century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).

iamlamad said in post 150:

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 2:31a refers to the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12), part of the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapter 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The 6th seal will happen only a few years before Jesus' 2nd coming, the start of the future day of the Lord.

iamlamad said in post 150:

There will be a SUDDEN EVENT...no warning...at a time of peace and safety...

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the two witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the two witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8) and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the two witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

iamlamad said in post 150:

Those NOT WATCHING for Him and left behind will face this sudden destruction.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

 

[Bible2]

shturt678s said in post 151:

Approximately 2/3ds of all Christians on the planet are Amills. my friend, ie, "1" Coming in the future.

Note that there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' one future coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as was outlined in post 141.

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he's walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there's no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning 1st on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning 1st on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

 

[iamlamad]

Bible2 wrote,

iamlamad said in post 150:

Revelation tells us the marriage and supper will be IN HEAVEN before the white horse descent to earth.
​

In Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31). For the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Instead of just copying and pasting your normal drivel, why don't you find a verse that fit's your argument (IF you can find one) and show us why you believe what you write.

In your case, you have nothing to show.

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

WHERE IS JOHN? WHERE IS THIS TAKING PLACE? IN HEAVEN!
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

WHERE IS JOHN? IN HEAVEN! WHERE IS GOD'S THRONE? IN HEAVEN. WHERE ARE THE FOUR BEASTS? WHERE ARE THE 24 ELDERS? IN HEAVEN!
5 And a voice came out of the throne...
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Read it, Bible2! Take off your preconceived glasses and read how silly your answer was. All this is taking place IN HEAVEN. There is no way you can get around this. It is plain as day. Do you imagine Jesus is NOT AT HIS WEDDING? OF COURSE HE IS STILL IN HEAVEN IN THIS VERSE.

Do you imagine that God our Father MOVED HIS THRONE to the atmosphere around the earth? Do you imagine the four beasts and 24 elders went with Him? What verse do you find that? Can you see how silly your answer was? You cannot find any kind of movement of location between these verses. It is NOT THERE. All this is in HEAVEN.

The truth is, they are in HEAVEN, on the heavenly planet where all the seals were broken, where John was caught up to, where all the trumpets were blown, and where the 7 angels with the seven plagues got the vials. All these things took place IN HEAVEN. John is STILL in heaven seeing this.

The truth you imagined what you wrote: it came from your own wild imagination. You have NO VERSE that even hints of what you wrote. Of course when one begins with ERROR, one must add more errors to attempt to substantiate the first error. Go back to Prophecy 101. Take off your preconceived glasses. STUDY Paul's rapture. He tells you when it will take place. It is not when you imagine it is.

bible2, this is NOT just fun and games. This is serious stuff. You are on a public forum where many will read. God will certainly hold you responsible for the nonsense you write.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Bible2 wrote,

iamlamad said in post 150:

When Jesus comes it will be a day of BRIGHTNESS.
​

Not at first (Matthew 24:29-30).

Bible2, how can you write such drivel? Did I not write WHEN Jesus comes? Why did you not include verse 27?

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

OF COURSE it will be dark BEFORE He comes! But I said WHEN HE comes. He will come with BRIGHTNESS and GLORY that will light up the sky and the planet.

LAMAD

 

[John S]

Your interpretation of God's word is usually WRONG.

Well, that is better, but still, it is your opinion.
Find something I have said that is against scripture.
Then we will have something to talk about.

LAMAD[/quote]
1. The Pre-Trib Rapture is a Satanic deception.
2. Claiming that God AUDIBLY speaks to you is an out and out lie.

 

[iamlamad]

Well, that is better, but still, it is your opinion.
Find something I have said that is against scripture.
Then we will have something to talk about.

LAMAD

1. The Pre-Trib Rapture is a Satanic deception.
2. Claiming that God AUDIBLY speaks to you is an out and out lie.[/quote]


Ha ha ha! Is that all you've got? Did you just fall off a turnip truck? What is the matter with you?

Did you not read that even the men that were with Paul HEARD A VOICE?
Did you not read about Ananias when God spoke to him about Paul?
Did you not read about Cornelius, how he heard a voice telling him his prayers and alms had come up as a memorial before God?
Did you not read about Peter, when he heard a voice saying "rise and eat?"
Did you not read: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

You should be worried about WHY YOU DON'T HEAR.

The pretrib rapture is TRUTH. It is you who is in deception.

The raptured church was seen in heaven in Rev. 7
The "trib" begins in Rev. 8 and goes to Rev. 16.

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

On a side note.




President Obama Meets Pope Francis at the Vatican - Yahoo


Rev 17
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 164:

WHERE IS GOD'S THRONE? IN HEAVEN. WHERE ARE THE FOUR BEASTS? WHERE ARE THE 24 ELDERS? IN HEAVEN!

Note that they all can still be in the 3rd heaven while the marriage takes place in the 1st heaven.

I.e., there are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b), which coexist in time. The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it's beyond outer space in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it's a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the two witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven there's currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16) which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It's New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) that people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). What we today call the northern lights, while they can been explained by physics, could point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalms 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

*******

iamlamad said in post 167:

The raptured church was seen in heaven in Rev. 7

Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter the 3rd heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in the 3rd heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter the 3rd heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter the 3rd heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Regarding the rapture, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

 

[Bible2]

John S said in post 166:

The Pre-Trib Rapture is a Satanic deception.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he's pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they'd held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

John S said in post 166:

The Pre-Trib Rapture is a Satanic deception.

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

 

[iamlamad]

Note that they all can still be in the 3rd heaven while the marriage takes place in the 1st heaven.

I.e., there are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b), which coexist in time. The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it's beyond outer space in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it's a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the two witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven there's currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16) which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It's New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) that people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). What we today call the northern lights, while they can been explained by physics, could point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalms 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

*******



Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter the 3rd heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in the 3rd heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter the 3rd heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter the 3rd heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Regarding the rapture, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

You are free to imagine things DIFFERENT than what is written. God gave us all a free will to believe anything. My question to you is, WHERE, what verse tells you that somewhere between verses the wedding MOVED from the scene of heaven? John was IN HEAVEN and all the verses up to the marriage verse was IN HEAVEN. AFTER the wedding, then John saw Jesus get on the white horse. So the truth is, the wedding is IN HEAVEN. AFTER the wedding, Jesus will get on the white horse and leave heaven, descend to the earth. It is written in that order, and that is the EXACT ORDER it will take place.

WHY would you imagine it would be in a different order than written? WHY?

Oh, could it be because you cannot let go of your FALSE THEORY that the rapture comes then, when Jesus descends (the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout)?

HOW can you explain that John wrote of the wedding BEFORE Jesus descends? You have put the cart before the horse. FALSE theories always end up doing that.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war

When you read of the supper, that tells us the marriage ceremony has already taken place. The supper ALWAYS follows the ceremony. So the ceremony took place IN HEAVEN. Then what FOLLOWS: the white horse.


This is the way YOU WISHED it was written:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


If it was written this way, you would have a leg to stand on. But I have news for your mixed up mind: IT IS NOT WRITTEN THIS WAY.

There were 7 youths from Columbia that were taken to heaven. Here is one testimony:

We also could see the wedding banquet table, everything was already served. It had no beginning or end. We saw the chairs prepared for us. There was also crowns of eternal life that are ready to be taken by us. We saw delicious foods that are already set, for all of those that will be invited to the Wedding of the Lamb.

Here is another:

After the Lord said these words, the door opened and we entered. I saw angels giving glory, honor and praise to our Heavenly Father! (Revelations 7:11-12) As we continued walking, we approached a table of which I could see the beginning, but not the end. (Revelations 19:9) I observed a large throne, and a smaller throne surrounded by thousands of chairs. Between the chairs were garments along with crowns. The Lord told me, "Daughter, the crown that you see there is the crown of life."(Revelations 2:10)
Jesus said, "Look, Daughter, this is what I have prepared for My people." I saw that the table was covered with a white tablecloth with gold edging. There were plates, gold goblets, fruit; everything was served. It was so beautiful. There was a very large vessel in the middle of the table, which contained the wine for the dinner. And Jesus said, "Daughter, everything is ready for the arrival of My church."




You can continue to believe your nonsense - it is your choice. But in your heart, you KNOW John wrote of the marriage before he wrote of the white horse. Do you have any right to change that order?

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 19 according to Bible2's theories:

IS THIS WHAT IS WRITTEN?

Rev. 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for it is ALMOST TIME for the marriage of the Lamb, BUT NOT YET, and his wife hath ALMOST made herself ready.
8 And to her WILL BE granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white WHEN SHE IS CAUGHT UP: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which WILL BE called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb, WHICH WILL COME SOON, JUST NOT YET. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
14b AND I HEARD THE VOICE AGAIN SAYING, Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb HAS FINALLY come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

14cAnd SHE WAS arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 14dAnd he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


IF Rev. 19 was written like this, we could assume that marriage and supper would be in the air before Jesus comes to earth. CAn anyone imagine miles and miles of tables spread in THIN AIR, with angels RUSHING back and forth to and from heaven, bringing food for the supper? Why have it in the air, when it could have been in heaven and all prepared ahead of time?


This just shows us how utterly silly some theories can be.


LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Can anyone picture a wedding taking place IN THE AIR? A Jewish wedding feast is a real feast, taking at least a week. Is the uncountable number of the saints just going to float around for days on end, and angels run back and forth to heaven bringing food?

HOw could anyone come up with such a crazy idea?

When John writes that it is TIME for the wedding, that means right then at that time. NOt some time in the future, when the saints all get on white horses and descend into a WAR ZONE.

Others think the marriage and supper will take place ON EARTH after the saints descend.....right into a WAR ZONE. Perhaps this is what the Psalmest meant by God preparing a table for us in the midst of our enemies!

Why not just believe what is written? The marriage and supper are IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends.

LAMAD

 

[Shocker]

Can anyone picture a wedding taking place IN THE AIR? A Jewish wedding feast is a real feast, taking at least a week. Is the uncountable number of the saints just going to float around for days on end, and angels run back and forth to heaven bringing food?

HOw could anyone come up with such a crazy idea?

When John writes that it is TIME for the wedding, that means right then at that time. NOt some time in the future, when the saints all get on white horses and descend into a WAR ZONE.

Others think the marriage and supper will take place ON EARTH after the saints descend.....right into a WAR ZONE. Perhaps this is what the Psalmest meant by God preparing a table for us in the midst of our enemies!

Why not just believe what is written? The marriage and supper are IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends.

LAMAD

hmm.. a week you say?

 

[iamlamad]

hmm.. a week you say?

How long did Jacob's wedding feast last? I think a week.

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

Now we always hear that in the middle of the week the daily sacrifice will be taken away. Then we hear that there are time, times or a half a time and then Jesus returns at the end of 7 years.

I will say again.......this rapture at the start of the week and then 7 years and Jesus returns stuff is wrong. I know that it what is commonly taught...but it's wrong.

Dan 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 8
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


So it appears there is a problem. They say in the middle of the week the sacrifice is taken away.........then 3.5 years and the Jesus returns.

But Daniel 8:14 says that there are 2300 days that happen after the sacrifice is taken away till the sanctuary and host are trodden under foot.

What is going on here?

 

[TPeterY]

Can anyone picture a wedding taking place IN THE AIR? A Jewish wedding feast is a real feast, taking at least a week. Is the uncountable number of the saints just going to float around for days on end, and angels run back and forth to heaven bringing food?

HOw could anyone come up with such a crazy idea?

When John writes that it is TIME for the wedding, that means right then at that time. NOt some time in the future, when the saints all get on white horses and descend into a WAR ZONE.

Others think the marriage and supper will take place ON EARTH after the saints descend.....right into a WAR ZONE. Perhaps this is what the Psalmest meant by God preparing a table for us in the midst of our enemies!

Why not just believe what is written? The marriage and supper are IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends.

LAMAD

I've seen this elsewhere but decided not to respond anymore fearing others might get mislead with all the wild ideas being written. I don't want to encourage this type of preaching so I just ignore it now.

 

[iamlamad]

Now we always hear that in the middle of the week the daily sacrifice will be taken away. Then we hear that there are time, times or a half a time and then Jesus returns at the end of 7 years.

I will say again.......this rapture at the start of the week and then 7 years and Jesus returns stuff is wrong. I know that it what is commonly taught...but it's wrong.

Dan 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 8
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


So it appears there is a problem. They say in the middle of the week the sacrifice is taken away.........then 3.5 years and the Jesus returns.

But Daniel 8:14 says that there are 2300 days that happen after the sacrifice is taken away till the sanctuary and host are trodden under foot.

What is going on here?

It's very simple, Antiochus desecrated the temple by slaughtering a pig, then putting up an image of Zeus.

It was 2300 days after when it was cleansed. Remember, it took a Red Heifer without spot or blemish to cleanse the temple?

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

It's very simple, Antiochus desecrated the temple by slaughtering a pig, then putting up an image of Zeus.

It was 2300 days after when it was cleansed. Remember, it took a Red Heifer without spot or blemish to cleanse the temple?

LAMAD

Yeah, that sounds good.......but what about this?


25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

 

[iamlamad]

Yeah, that sounds good.......but what about this?


25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

When Antiochus came against Israel, he came against the King of Kings. The way he died fits this verse also. It was as if his inside were rotting with him alive. No one wanted to carry him for the stench.

The Antichrist Beast will be taken by force.

LAMAD