Scattershooting about the Rapture, Harvests, Antichrist etc.

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post 200:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Instead of being fulfilled by a lunar eclipse, the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

 

[TPeterY]

Oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm about to do something that will defend Bible2's argument. :o Don't worry, I'm not turning Post-Trib. I'm saying just for once he's right.

Plus while I'm at it, gonna throw in some additional info about what's ahead.
_____________________________________________

Matthew 24:29 occurs after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

__________________________________

Rev 6:12-17 is before the tribulation.

The bible declares the tribulation is just ahead sometimes after verse 17. The blood moon event we are witnessing now is at verse 12.

Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

12) I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15) And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16) and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

_______________________________

And the blood moon event of Rev 6 is in line with Matthew 24:34 and Psalm 90:10. Rebirth of Israel in 1948 + 70 years = 2018.

70 years is a generation in the bible, 80 years is tribulation.

Jesus used the Parable of the Fig Tree as Israel. Right now Israel is about 66 years old (1948-2014=66) When Israel gets beyond 70, it's just labor and sorrow as described in Psalm 90:10 as it goes through the tribulation and at the end, the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

Matthew 24:34 (NKJV)
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Psalm 90:10 (NKJV)
The days of our lives are seventy years;
And if by reason of strength they are eighty years,
Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow;
For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

_____________________________________

The prophecies mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse described in Luke 21:8-19 are almost fulfilled except verse 11 concerning the great signs from heaven, which is the blood moon event. (Matthew and Mark forgot to mention the great signs from heaven: The 4 Blood Moon event, which is why I'm using Luke's description).

Luke 21:11 (NKJV)
And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

For those that are observant, the Olivet Discourse describes the 2nd-6th Seals of Revelation. Also why Jesus is the one that opens the Seals.

Sometime after the last blood moon on Sept 2015, the prophecies before the tribulation in the Olivet Discourse and all 6th Seals will be completed and fulfill.

The stage in the Middle East is almost set and ready to begin Daniel's 70th week once Israel is recognize by the Palestinians as it's own state and a covenant is confirm. All this could happen between 2016-2018. Personally I believe it'll happen at the end due to what Jesus described in the days of Noah when the flood was delayed.

________________________________________

For those extra observant, Jesus said when you see "all" these things happening at the "same time", know that the kingdom is near.

From now till Sept 2015, we (this generation) will see "all" these things happening at the "same time." Everything described in the Olivet Discourse before the tribulation and all 6 Seals of Revelation happening at the same time.

Luke 21:29-33 (NKJV)
The Parable of the Fig Tree

29) Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.
30) When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31) So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
32) Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.
33) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

______________________________________

Finally, for those super observant that are able to see the parallel and accuracy of Jesus' testimony.

Luke 21:10-17 (NKJV)
10) Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
11) And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
12) But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
13) But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.
14) Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;
15) for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
16) You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
17) And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.

1st Seal: The Conqueror = The person would will be the antichrist is currently trying to over throw Bashar al-Assad of Syria, and is now involved in Middle East affairs with Obama - believe that or not.

2nd Seal: War = Luke 21:10 = Conflict in the Middle East, particularly in Syria.

2nd Seal: War with Pestilence = Luke 21:11 = Chemical Warfare in Syria.

BBC News - Syria chemical attack: What we know

U.N. confirms use of chemical weapons in Syria - CNN.com

More than 1,400 killed in Syrian chemical weapons attack, U.S. says - The Washington Post

2nd & 3rd Seal: War with Famine = Like 21:11 = Starvation as a means of warfare in Syria.

Famine, starvation, and deprivation: Food as a weapon of war., 3 April 2014

Syrian children dying of hunger - CNN.com

Syria: Assad Regime Uses Starvation as Tactic Against Rebels | TIME.com

4th Seal: Widespread Death = Luke 21:11 (earthquakes in various places) = The rise in earthquakes are what's causing a global rise in mass deaths with wildlife and marine life.

Animals and fish deaths solved--methane gas.

Mass Bird & Fish Deaths Caused by Hydraulic Fracking & Earthquakes? | PlanetSave

5th Seal: Martyrs = Luke 21:12-17 = Christian persecution in the Middle East.

6th Seal: Cosmic Signs = Luke 21:11 (great signs from Heaven) = 4 Blood Moon Event.

So when the disciples asked Jesus what are the signs of His return, it would only make sense to them if He described events close to Israel and at a time close to His return. Not WW1, WW2, The Mexican American war or the American Civil war. After all, the entire bible are stories about Israel and it's surrounding neighbors. It's no different in Revelation concerning future events.

_____________________________________________

There's additional information about the Seals that will answer other questions but I'll discuss that another time since this thread is starting to get long.

The events of the Seals will happen again during the tribulation for Israel. Right now it's pre-trib signs for the church. Will have to discuss that another time too.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Instead of being fulfilled by a lunar eclipse, the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

More likely the stars falling from heaven represent the fallen angels being cast from heaven to the earth.

There are to be eight kingdoms total......five have fallen, one is in Johns day and one is yet to come. And one of the seven kings will be an eighth.

We also know this:

Daniel 2
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Point being, the stars falling from the sky are angels that mix with the seed of men.

Why is there no talk about the two kingdoms that have not happened yet?

The eighth kingdom would have to occur after the stars fall from heaven. This is after the tribulation ......sixth seal...........and before the wrath of God is poured out in seventh seal.

To conclude..... the verses in Rev 6 are the same as those in Matt 24

 

[Choose Wisely]

TPeterY;65405843]

Oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm about to do something that will defend Bible2's argument. :o Don't worry, I'm not turning Post-Trib. I'm saying just for once he's right.

Plus while I'm at it, gonna throw in some additional info about what's ahead.

Don't get carried away........ Bible 2 is not right in this case

Matthew 24:29 occurs after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

So far so good.

Rev 6:12-17 is before the tribulation.

The bible declares the tribulation is just ahead sometimes after verse 17. The blood moon event we are witnessing now is at verse 12.

Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

12) I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14) Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15) And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16) and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Train just went off the track. The verses in Rev 6 are the same verses in Matt 24.

Both verses talk of sun and moon events..........stars falling from heaven (angels). Then we see the son of man in Matt 24 and the kings of the earth trying to hide from him that sits on the throne. Then we see the gathering in Matthew and the great multitude in Rev.

Finally, for those super observant that are able to see the parallel and accuracy of Jesus' testimony.

Luke 21:10-17 (NKJV)
10) Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
11) And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
12) But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
13) But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.
14) Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;
15) for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
16) You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
17) And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.

If you were just mildly observant you would realize that Luke 21 when talking of Jerusalem is speaking of things that will happen in 70 AD. Whereas Matt 24 when talking about Jerusalem is talking about future events.

1st Seal: The Conqueror = The person would will be the antichrist is currently trying to over throw Bashar al-Assad of Syria, and is now involved in Middle East affairs with Obama - believe that or not.

Lots of smoke being blown here Peter.

2nd Seal: War = Luke 21:10 = Conflict in the Middle East, particularly in Syria.

2nd Seal: War with Pestilence = Luke 21:11 = Chemical Warfare in Syria.

BBC News - Syria chemical attack: What we know

U.N. confirms use of chemical weapons in Syria - CNN.com

More than 1,400 killed in Syrian chemical weapons attack, U.S. says - The Washington Post

2nd & 3rd Seal: War with Famine = Like 21:11 = Starvation as a means of warfare in Syria.

Famine, starvation, and deprivation: Food as a weapon of war., 3 April 2014

Syrian children dying of hunger - CNN.com

Syria: Assad Regime Uses Starvation as Tactic Against Rebels | TIME.com

4th Seal: Widespread Death = Luke 21:11 (earthquakes in various places) = The rise in earthquakes are what's causing a global rise in mass deaths with wildlife and marine life.

Animals and fish deaths solved--methane gas.

Mass Bird & Fish Deaths Caused by Hydraulic Fracking & Earthquakes? | PlanetSave

5th Seal: Martyrs = Luke 21:12-17 = Christian persecution in the Middle East.
6th Seal: Cosmic Signs = Luke 21:11 (great signs from Heaven) = 4 Blood Moon Event.

One huge problem.......the first seal has not been opened yet.

So when the disciples asked Jesus what are the signs of His return, it would only make sense to them if He described events close to Israel and at a time close to His return. Not WW1, WW2, The Mexican American war or the American Civil war. After all, the entire bible are stories about Israel and it's surrounding neighbors. It's no different in Revelation concerning future events.

I would recommend that you study the difference between Luke 21 and Matt 24. I would pay particular attention to these verses below. I would also check which disciples were present and where were they in Luke 21 and who was present and where were they in Matt 24.


Luke 21
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Matt 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post 203:

There are to be eight kingdoms total......five have fallen, one is in Johns day and one is yet to come. And one of the seven kings will be an eighth.

That's right.

The 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

Choose Wisely said in post 203:

Daniel 2
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Point being, the stars falling from the sky are angels that mix with the seed of men.

Daniel 2:42-43 might best be understood not in the light of Genesis 6, but in the light of Daniel 7.

In Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Choose Wisely said in post 203:

To conclude..... the verses in Rev 6 are the same as those in Matt 24

Actually, Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21) and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post 203:

More likely the stars falling from heaven represent the fallen angels being cast from heaven to the earth.

That could be true with regard to Revelation 12. For Revelation 12:7-9 hasn't happened yet, but is part of the things that must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1b). And just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what he saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).

For before Revelation 12:7-9 happens, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when the army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he's sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

It's at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he's come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of the 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[TPeterY]

TPeterY;65405843]
Don't get carried away........ Bible 2 is not right in this case
So far so good.
Train just went off the track. The verses in Rev 6 are the same verses in Matt 24.

No, they're not the same, not even close.

If the Blood Moon you saw on Tuesday is Matthew 24, than you yourself would already know who the antichrist is, when the tribulation started, the date of the abomination of desolation, the mark of the beast, etc etc because Matthew 24 is "after"the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Look at threads #260 and #271 on this link explaining the differences.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7795532-26/

Both verses talk of sun and moon events..........stars falling from heaven (angels). Then we see the son of man in Matt 24 and the kings of the earth trying to hide from him that sits on the throne. Then we see the gathering in Matthew and the great multitude in Rev.

No, the stars are not angels from heaven. John knows what angels looks like in his vision of Revelation. He mentions angels numerous times in his writing. He just didn't know what missiles and rockets are when he saw stars in the sky in his vision.

John addressed angels as angels. Here's one of many verses in Revelation where John spoke of an angel.

Revelation 5:2 (NKJV)
Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?”

If you were just mildly observant you would realize that Luke 21 when talking of Jerusalem is speaking of things that will happen in 70 AD. Whereas Matt 24 when talking about Jerusalem is talking about future events.

Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse happened in 70 AD? Okay, if you say so. :o :o :o

Lots of smoke being blown here Peter.

One huge problem.......the first seal has not been opened yet.

I would recommend that you study the difference between Luke 21 and Matt 24. I would pay particular attention to these verses below. I would also check which disciples were present and where were they in Luke 21 and who was present and where were they in Matt 24.

Don't make comments like blowing smoke until you do your homework. It just shows ignorance. Learn about what's going on in the Middle East. Try putting 2 and 2 together and see if you can figure it out.

And now you're contradicting yourself here. If the first seal has not been open, than how can Tuesday's Blood Moon be Matthew 24?

Again Matthew 24 is after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


Opinion: Forget Ukraine, Syria is now the world's biggest threat - CNN.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvvqrwwkSlM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hdhhWyw4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWXR_CrtLIs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbnc7AXY-bg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkzMpGRSfuc

Syria: Israel and Turkey Supporting Rebels - Middle East - News - Israel National News

Sources: U.S. urges Israel to attack Syrian forces threatening CIA-trained rebels in Golan - World Tribune | World Tribune

Obama Urges Erdogan to Renew Diplomatic Ties With Israel | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

Israpundit » Blog Archive » Sources: U.S. urges Israel to attack Syrian forces threatening CIA-trained rebels in Golan

Assad Angry After Rebel Promotes Peace With Israel - Middle East - News - Israel National News

Assad warns Turkey of 'heavy price' for backing Syrian rebels | JPost | Israel News

 

[Choose Wisely]

Bible2;65412594]

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

They are not in chronological order. I will show you why I don't think they are in future posts.

 

[iamlamad]

TPeterY;65405843]
Don't get carried away........ Bible 2 is not right in this case

So far so good.

Train just went off the track. The verses in Rev 6 are the same verses in Matt 24.

WRONG! These signs in the heavens will happen TWICE. Once as a SIGN for the Day of the Lord (Joel 2 and Rev. 6) and then again as a sign for His coming AFTER the "trib:" Joel 3 and Matthew 24. So, TRAIN IS STILL ON THE TRACK.

Both verses talk of sun and moon events..........stars falling from heaven (angels). Then we see the son of man in Matt 24 and the kings of the earth trying to hide from him that sits on the throne. Then we see the gathering in Matthew and the great multitude in Rev.

WRONG! His coming will be SO SUDDENLY in Matthew 24, and Rev. 19...no one will have time to do ANYTHING. However, people WILL try to hide from him at the SIGNS for the Day of the Lord, as seen in Matt. 6. But this event will be over 7 years before He comes WITH His saints as seen in Rev. 19.

Readers: always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology in Revelation is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

If you were just mildly observant you would realize that Luke 21 when talking of Jerusalem is speaking of things that will happen in 70 AD. Whereas Matt 24 when talking about Jerusalem is talking about future events.

Lots of smoke being blown here Peter.

One huge problem.......the first seal has not been opened yet.

WRONG! No problem at all. The first FIVE seals were opened about 32 AD. Choose Wisely, it is not right to pull verses OUT OF CONTEXT and then teach a false doctrine. We have been over and over this: WHEN are you going to understand John? Go back and study chapters 4 & 5. They tell us a story that sets the TIMING of the first seals.

First, Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, because the TIMING was when He was on the earth.

Second, NO MAN was found, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. The TIMING was while He was still UNDER the earth.

Third, the Holy Spirit was still there in the throne room, because of TIMING: Jesus had not yet ascended so He could send the Holy Spirit down.

HERE is where Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down:

Rev. 5
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

WHEN did this all happen? Of course way back in 32 or 33 AD. You cannot find 2000 years in any verses from there to the first seal....or even between any verses. What did Jesus do the moment He arrived in heaven?

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

HE TOOK THE SCROLL so He could begin breaking seals. He waited for the praise and worship that was due Him, then began to break seals.....in 32 AD!

So when the disciples asked Jesus what are the signs of His return, it would only make sense to them if He described events close to Israel and at a time close to His return. Not WW1, WW2, The Mexican American war or the American Civil war. After all, the entire bible are stories about Israel and it's surrounding neighbors. It's no different in Revelation concerning future events.

WOW! You hit the nail right on the head here! Revelation is about ISRAEL, not the USA.

I would recommend that you study the difference between Luke 21 and Matt 24. I would pay particular attention to these verses below. I would also check which disciples were present and where were they in Luke 21 and who was present and where were they in Matt 24.


Luke 21
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Matt 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

I agree, these things were to happen during the CHURCH AGE.

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

TPeterY;65412815]

No, they're not the same, not even close.

If the Blood Moon you saw on Tuesday is Matthew 24, than you yourself would already know who the antichrist is, when the tribulation started, the date of the abomination of desolation, the mark of the beast, etc etc because Matthew 24 is "after"the tribulation.

No, my point is not in any way that the blood moon that recently happened is Matt 24. My point is........the excuse that I keep hearing for the sun moon stars verses not being the same for Matt 24 and Rev 6. Is that in Matt the moon darkens and in Rev 6 it becomes as blood. However the recent blood moon shows us that there is an eclipse during the different phases of the blood moon. Therefore the excuse is completely shot down in flames.

No, the stars are not angels from heaven. John knows what angels looks like in his vision of Revelation. He mentions angels numerous times in his writing. He just didn't know what missiles and rockets are when he saw stars in the sky in his vision.

John addressed angels as angels. Here's one of many verses in Revelation where John spoke of an angel.

Revelation 5:2 (NKJV)
Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?”

Yes, stars falling from heaven can represent angels.
Here is one of many verses where we see that a star falling from heaven is anything but a star.

Rev 9
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse happened in 70 AD? Okay, if you say so. :o :o :o

Strange that you would comment blindly without even looking to see who was present in the account of Luke and who was present in the account of Matthew. You also go right past the fact that Luke refers to events that will happen.......before the nations rise against each other....and Matt refers to events that will happen after nations rise against each other. Your failure to investigate these TRUTHS has you walking blindly.

Don't make comments like blowing smoke until you do your homework. It just shows ignorance. Learn about what's going on in the Middle East. Try putting 2 and 2 together and see if you can figure it out.

You are right, blowing smoke was a little weak. How about barking up the complete wrong tree.

And now you're contradicting yourself here. If the first seal has not been open, than how can Tuesday's Blood Moon be Matthew 24?

I did not say the blood moon that happened was Matt 24. My point is that the blood moon event has an eclipse......darkening the moon.........meaning that the sun moon stars events of Matt 24 are the same events that occur in Rev 6. Again.....I am not saying that the recent blood moon was the fulfillment of Matt 24

Again Matthew 24 is after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Right....and we can see these events in Rev 6........meaning that the tribulation is over in Rev 6 and the wrath of God begins.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 209:

I agree, these things were to happen during the CHURCH AGE.

Note that there's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

 

[iamlamad]

TPeterY;65412815]

No, my point is not in any way that the blood moon that recently happened is Matt 24. My point is........the excuse that I keep hearing for the sun moon stars verses not being the same for Matt 24 and Rev 6. Is that in Matt the moon darkens and in Rev 6 it becomes as blood. However the recent blood moon shows us that there is an eclipse during the different phases of the blood moon. Therefore the excuse is completely shot down in flames.




Yes, stars falling from heaven can represent angels.
Here is one of many verses where we see that a star falling from heaven is anything but a star.

Rev 9
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.




Strange that you would comment blindly without even looking to see who was present in the account of Luke and who was present in the account of Matthew. You also go right past the fact that Luke refers to events that will happen.......before the nations rise against each other....and Matt refers to events that will happen after nations rise against each other. Your failure to investigate these TRUTHS has you walking blindly.





You are right, blowing smoke was a little weak. How about barking up the complete wrong tree.





I did not say the blood moon that happened was Matt 24. My point is that the blood moon event has an eclipse......darkening the moon.........meaning that the sun moon stars events of Matt 24 are the same events that occur in Rev 6. Again.....I am not saying that the recent blood moon was the fulfillment of Matt 24






Right....and we can see these events in Rev 6........meaning that the tribulation is over in Rev 6 and the wrath of God begins.

You are barking up the wrong tree, blowing smoke, and will remain so until you see that the 6th seal events come 7 years + before the Matthew 24 "after the trib" events. You think you have the right to rearrange Revelation. You DON'T. You think there is a need. That only shows your theories are FAR OFF from truth. If you believed the truth, you would have no need to rearrange Revelation.

"WITH GOD NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE"

Yet you seem to think God cannot make the sun appear black (total eclipse) and the moon appear as blood once (total eclipse) (or 4 times in a row), the stars fall to the earth (a great meteor shower) and then seven years later make the sun and moon go dark for days on end, and stars fall again?

LET GO of this false doctrine! For once ASSUME Revelation is written in the order these things will take place - for it truly is - and TRY IT. Study through these things again AS IF Revelation is the God Given order of events to come. Remember, Revelation is written as "micro" where we get DETAILS, while Matthew 24 is Macro - as if viewing the distant future as through a telescope: you can only see the tops of the mountains; the valleys between are not seen.

Leading up to the Olivet discourse:

IS IT LAWFUL TO PAY TAXES:
Matt. 22:15
Luke 20:20

The Saducees on Resurrection:
Matthew 22:23
Luke 20:27

HOW can David call His descendant "Lord?"
Matthew 22:41
Luke 20:41

Jesus predicts temple destruction:
Matthew 24:2
Luke 21:6

Disciples ask questions:
Matthew 24:3
Luke 21:7

Luke: When will these things (the temple destroyed) be?
What sign for a warning before this happens?

Matthew: When will these things (The temple destroyed) be?
What will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?

Jesus begins with being deceived:

Matt. Take heed no one deceives you.
Luke: Take heed you not be deceived.

MANY come in my name and deceive many:
Matt: 24:5
Luke: 21:8

WARS:
Luke: Wars come first, don't be troubled; but the end will NOT come immediately
Matt: You will hear of wars and rumors; don't be troubled, the end will not come yet.

Note: in both, we see that wars are NOT a sign of the end, but are church age events.

earthquakes, famines and pestilences
Matt: 24:7
Luke: 21:11

I could go on and on with the similarities. My point? Both Luke and Matthew are writing of the VERY SAME DISCOURSE. However, each remembers and writes is differently. Both cover the entire church age, up to and including the abomination and then His coming.

However, Luke does not mention the abomination; Matthew does not mention Jerusalem surrounded by armies. However, we know from Revelation that this certainly will happen. And Gentiles will trample Jerusalem for 42 months. Luke says Jerusalem will be trampled.

Make no mistake here:Both are the very same Olivet Discourse. Both speak of the 70th week of Daniel. However, God had Luke word his dialog so that it would ALSO be a warning for 70 AD. It is not about 70 AD, it is about the 70th week of Daniel: But God worded it to do a DOUBLE REFERENCE.

Luke tells those in Judea to FLEE, just as Matthew does. Luke writes, "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." What happened in 70 AD was not "all things" "fullfilled." Luke is taking about the 70th week just as Matthew is. Both mention the woe of being pregnant at that time of fleeing. Then both talk about Jesus coming after these events. Both talk about the fig tree. Both talk about the importance of watching.

The truth is, BOTH are talking about the 70th week of Daniel and the events leading up to it and then the events after it. However, God CHOSE to word Luke so it would also be a warning for the 70 AD event.

LAMAD

 

[TPeterY]

No, my point is not in any way that the blood moon that recently happened is Matt 24. My point is........the excuse that I keep hearing for the sun moon stars verses not being the same for Matt 24 and Rev 6. Is that in Matt the moon darkens and in Rev 6 it becomes as blood. However the recent blood moon shows us that there is an eclipse during the different phases of the blood moon. Therefore the excuse is completely shot down in flames.p

Are you saying the reaseon why you don't believe the Blood Moon we saw on Tuesday is part of Rev 6:12 because there was an eclipse of the moon before it turned red like blood in this video below?

Blood moon: Lunar eclipse gazers mesmerized as red hue lights up sky - CNN.com

Yes, stars falling from heaven can represent angels.
Here is one of many verses where we see that a star falling from heaven is anything but a star.

Rev 9
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Don't you think it be a lot more accurate for John to write Rev 9 like this if that star he's referring to is an angel?

"And the fifth angel sounded, an I saw an angel fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key to the bottomless pit."

John knows what angels looks like in his vision and he described them. You have to realize John lived 2000 years ago. He doesn't know what modern warfare looks like. He's trying to describe things he's never seen before: tanks, aircrafts, helicopters, missiles and rockets.

The star in Rev 9 (5th Seal & 1st Woe) is the first nuclear bomb dropped in the middle east. It's very very likely Iran will nuke Saudi Arabia. Currently the most hated relation in the middle east is between Iran and Saudi Arabia, not Iran and Israel. Saudi Arabia and Israel are also allies conspiring against Iran. If you know the situation in the middle east, you'll know what I'm leading to.

Now look at Rev 9:1-2 from the ERV version. John doesn't recognize what he saw. His explanation is a metaphor of a nuclear bomb. The hole is a giant crater from the nuke. A giant mushroom cloud from the blast covers the sky and the light from sun.

Revelation 9:1-2 (ERV)
The Fifth Trumpet Begins the First Terror

1) The fifth angel blew his trumpet. Then I saw a star fall from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the deep hole that leads down to the bottomless pit. 2) Then the star opened the hole leading to the pit. Smoke came up from the hole like smoke from a big furnace. The sun and sky became dark because of the smoke from the hole.

The first half of the Tribulation, Israel is at total peace. From 1948 to the end of the tribulation, there will be no greater time of peace for Israel than the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. Israel will be elated beyond belief because not only for the first time she's finally at real peace, but her neighboring enemies are at war with each other killing one another.

The antichrist confirms a convenant with Israel at the beginning of the tribulation. They won't attack Israel, instead they fight each other, muslims against muslims (Sunnis vs Shiites, Sunnis vs Sunnis) as the antichrist seeks to unified the middle east under his reign during the first 3.5 years.

After the wars, the middle east will lose the oil reserves from Saudi Arabia and other countries as well as suffer financial and economic loses. Saudi Arabia and Eqypt is a complete desolation. They will have no choice but to attack Israel and plunder the country right before the middle of the tribulation.

Strange that you would comment blindly without even looking to see who was present in the account of Luke and who was present in the account of Matthew. You also go right past the fact that Luke refers to events that will happen.......before the nations rise against each other....and Matt refers to events that will happen after nations rise against each other. Your failure to investigate these TRUTHS has you walking blindly.

Not so strange. I just ignored it. Didn't care to discuss what sounded like Preterist thinking. You said Luke's version of the Discourse happened at 70 AD. I don't want to encourage people to dwell on this nonsense.

I did not say the blood moon that happened was Matt 24. My point is that the blood moon event has an eclipse......darkening the moon.........meaning that the sun moon stars events of Matt 24 are the same events that occur in Rev 6. Again.....I am not saying that the recent blood moon was the fulfillment of Matt 24

Right....and we can see these events in Rev 6........meaning that the tribulation is over in Rev 6 and the wrath of God begins.

You have to follow what the bible said, not man's interpretation. It describes the moon turning red like blood. Just go with that. Just because there's an eclipse right before it turns red doesn't mean the Four Blood Moon Event is not what the bible is referring to.

Otherwise, you will have to find out how the moon turns red like blood, and also explain why you believe the Revelation chapter 6 and the 6th Seal happens at the end of the tribulation, which is illogical.

The real answer is simple. The Blood Moons of Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:30-31 and Acts 2:19-20 are the same event marking the return of Jesus for His bride before the Tribulation. All 3 descriptions shows the moon red like blood.

Revelation 6:12 (NKJV)
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Joel 2:30-31 (NKJV)
30) “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Acts 2:19-20 (NKJV)
19) I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

_________________________________________

I don't want to get into further discussion about the above because it's just back and forth debate about the same thing and I'm sure you already knew the answer to all the above, plus I'm antisocial. LOL

But I will answer this below.

TPeterY;65412815]
You are right, blowing smoke was a little weak. How about barking up the complete wrong tree.

What is it about what I said you find hard to believe that's not getting through? Is it about who the antichrist is? Is it about the antichrist working with Obama? or something else?

.

 

[Shocker]

Are you saying the reaseon why you don't believe the Blood Moon we saw on Tuesday is part of Rev 6:12 because there was an eclipse of the moon before it turned red like blood in this video below?

Blood moon: Lunar eclipse gazers mesmerized as red hue lights up sky - CNN.com




Don't you think it be a lot more accurate for John to write Rev 9 like this if that star he's referring to is an angel?

"And the fifth angel sounded, an I saw an angel fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key to the bottomless pit."

John knows what angels looks like in his vision and he described them. You have to realize John lived 2000 years ago. He doesn't know what modern warfare looks like. He's trying to describe things he's never seen before: tanks, aircrafts, helicopters, missiles and rockets.

The star in Rev 9 (5th Seal & 1st Woe) is the first nuclear bomb dropped in the middle east. It's very very likely Iran will nuke Saudi Arabia. Currently the most hated relation in the middle east is between Iran and Saudi Arabia, not Iran and Israel. Saudi Arabia and Israel are also allies conspiring against Iran. If you know the situation in the middle east, you'll know what I'm leading to.

Now look at Rev 9:1-2 from the ERV version. John doesn't recognize what he saw. His explanation is a metaphor of a nuclear bomb. The hole is a giant crater from the nuke. A giant mushroom cloud from the blast covers the sky and the light from sun.

Revelation 9:1-2 (ERV)
The Fifth Trumpet Begins the First Terror

1) The fifth angel blew his trumpet. Then I saw a star fall from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the deep hole that leads down to the bottomless pit. 2) Then the star opened the hole leading to the pit. Smoke came up from the hole like smoke from a big furnace. The sun and sky became dark because of the smoke from the hole.

The first half of the Tribulation, Israel is at total peace. From 1948 to the end of the tribulation, there will be no greater time of peace for Israel than the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. Israel will be elated beyond belief because not only for the first time she's finally at real peace, but her neighboring enemies are at war with each other killing one another.

The antichrist confirms a convenant with Israel at the beginning of the tribulation. They won't attack Israel, instead they fight each other, muslims against muslims (Sunnis vs Shiites, Sunnis vs Sunnis) as the antichrist seeks to unified the middle east under his reign during the first 3.5 years.

After the wars, the middle east will lose the oil reserves from Saudi Arabia and other countries as well as suffer financial and economic loses. Saudi Arabia and Eqypt is a complete desolation. They will have no choice but to attack Israel and plunder the country right before the middle of the tribulation.



Not so strange. I just ignored it. Didn't care to discuss what sounded like Preterist thinking. You said Luke's version of the Discourse happened at 70 AD. I don't want to encourage people to dwell on this nonsense.



You have to follow what the bible said, not man's interpretation. It describes the moon turning red like blood. Just go with that. Just because there's an eclipse right before it turns red doesn't mean the Four Blood Moon Event is not what the bible is referring to.

Otherwise, you will have to find out how the moon turns red like blood, and also explain why you believe the Revelation chapter 6 and the 6th Seal happens at the end of the tribulation, which is illogical.

The real answer is simple. The Blood Moons of Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:30-31 and Acts 2:19-20 are the same event marking the return of Jesus for His bride before the Tribulation. All 3 descriptions shows the moon red like blood.

Revelation 6:12 (NKJV)
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Joel 2:30-31 (NKJV)
30) “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Acts 2:19-20 (NKJV)
19) I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

_________________________________________

I don't want to get into further discussion about the above because it's just back and forth debate about the same thing and I'm sure you already knew the answer to all the above, plus I'm antisocial. LOL

But I will answer this below.



What is it about what I said you find hard to believe that's not getting through? Is it about who the antichrist is? Is it about the antichrist working with Obama? or something else?

.

Yes yes and yes

 

[shturt678s]

Are you saying the reaseon why you don't believe the Blood Moon we saw on Tuesday is part of Rev 6:12 because there was an eclipse of the moon before it turned red like blood in this video below?

Blood moon: Lunar eclipse gazers mesmerized as red hue lights up sky - CNN.com




Don't you think it be a lot more accurate for John to write Rev 9 like this if that star he's referring to is an angel?

"And the fifth angel sounded, an I saw an angel fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key to the bottomless pit."

John knows what angels looks like in his vision and he described them. You have to realize John lived 2000 years ago. He doesn't know what modern warfare looks like. He's trying to describe things he's never seen before: tanks, aircrafts, helicopters, missiles and rockets.

The star in Rev 9 (5th Seal & 1st Woe) is the first nuclear bomb dropped in the middle east. It's very very likely Iran will nuke Saudi Arabia. Currently the most hated relation in the middle east is between Iran and Saudi Arabia, not Iran and Israel. Saudi Arabia and Israel are also allies conspiring against Iran. If you know the situation in the middle east, you'll know what I'm leading to.

Now look at Rev 9:1-2 from the ERV version. John doesn't recognize what he saw. His explanation is a metaphor of a nuclear bomb. The hole is a giant crater from the nuke. A giant mushroom cloud from the blast covers the sky and the light from sun.

Revelation 9:1-2 (ERV)
The Fifth Trumpet Begins the First Terror

1) The fifth angel blew his trumpet. Then I saw a star fall from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the deep hole that leads down to the bottomless pit. 2) Then the star opened the hole leading to the pit. Smoke came up from the hole like smoke from a big furnace. The sun and sky became dark because of the smoke from the hole.

The first half of the Tribulation, Israel is at total peace. From 1948 to the end of the tribulation, there will be no greater time of peace for Israel than the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. Israel will be elated beyond belief because not only for the first time she's finally at real peace, but her neighboring enemies are at war with each other killing one another.

The antichrist confirms a convenant with Israel at the beginning of the tribulation. They won't attack Israel, instead they fight each other, muslims against muslims (Sunnis vs Shiites, Sunnis vs Sunnis) as the antichrist seeks to unified the middle east under his reign during the first 3.5 years.

After the wars, the middle east will lose the oil reserves from Saudi Arabia and other countries as well as suffer financial and economic loses. Saudi Arabia and Eqypt is a complete desolation. They will have no choice but to attack Israel and plunder the country right before the middle of the tribulation.



Not so strange. I just ignored it. Didn't care to discuss what sounded like Preterist thinking. You said Luke's version of the Discourse happened at 70 AD. I don't want to encourage people to dwell on this nonsense.



You have to follow what the bible said, not man's interpretation. It describes the moon turning red like blood. Just go with that. Just because there's an eclipse right before it turns red doesn't mean the Four Blood Moon Event is not what the bible is referring to.

Otherwise, you will have to find out how the moon turns red like blood, and also explain why you believe the Revelation chapter 6 and the 6th Seal happens at the end of the tribulation, which is illogical.

The real answer is simple. The Blood Moons of Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:30-31 and Acts 2:19-20 are the same event marking the return of Jesus for His bride before the Tribulation. All 3 descriptions shows the moon red like blood.

Revelation 6:12 (NKJV)
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Joel 2:30-31 (NKJV)
30) “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Acts 2:19-20 (NKJV)
19) I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

_________________________________________

I don't want to get into further discussion about the above because it's just back and forth debate about the same thing and I'm sure you already knew the answer to all the above, plus I'm antisocial. LOL

But I will answer this below.



What is it about what I said you find hard to believe that's not getting through? Is it about who the antichrist is? Is it about the antichrist working with Obama? or something else?

.

No, no, and an emphatic no!

Only for openers, Rev.9:1's star we simply have a personification again meaning this whole perliminary judgment comes from God and is sent upon men as a curse,ie, today.

Old Jack's view

 

[TPeterY]

No, no, and an emphatic no!

Only for openers, Rev.9:1's star we simply have a personification again meaning this whole perliminary judgment comes from God and is sent upon men as a curse,ie, today.

Old Jack's view

No that's not correct. 9:1 is not a star. A literal star hitting the earth would instantly destroy the whole planet. The star is a metaphor for a nuclear bomb that dropped in the middle east. $10 bucks it's against Saudi Arabia too. Mecca and Medina destroyed during the first half of the tribulation. Muslims will need to take Jerusalem in order to keep praising allah.

And any judgement during the tribulation would be wraths, not curses. Nobody repents from a curse, which is the purpose of the Great Tribulation.

 

[iamlamad]

Are you saying the reaseon why you don't believe the Blood Moon we saw on Tuesday is part of Rev 6:12 because there was an eclipse of the moon before it turned red like blood in this video below?

Blood moon: Lunar eclipse gazers mesmerized as red hue lights up sky - CNN.com




Don't you think it be a lot more accurate for John to write Rev 9 like this if that star he's referring to is an angel?

"And the fifth angel sounded, an I saw an angel fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key to the bottomless pit."

John knows what angels looks like in his vision and he described them. You have to realize John lived 2000 years ago. He doesn't know what modern warfare looks like. He's trying to describe things he's never seen before: tanks, aircrafts, helicopters, missiles and rockets.

The star in Rev 9 (5th Seal & 1st Woe) is the first nuclear bomb dropped in the middle east. It's very very likely Iran will nuke Saudi Arabia. Currently the most hated relation in the middle east is between Iran and Saudi Arabia, not Iran and Israel. Saudi Arabia and Israel are also allies conspiring against Iran. If you know the situation in the middle east, you'll know what I'm leading to.

Now look at Rev 9:1-2 from the ERV version. John doesn't recognize what he saw. His explanation is a metaphor of a nuclear bomb. The hole is a giant crater from the nuke. A giant mushroom cloud from the blast covers the sky and the light from sun.

Revelation 9:1-2 (ERV)
The Fifth Trumpet Begins the First Terror

1) The fifth angel blew his trumpet. Then I saw a star fall from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the deep hole that leads down to the bottomless pit. 2) Then the star opened the hole leading to the pit. Smoke came up from the hole like smoke from a big furnace. The sun and sky became dark because of the smoke from the hole.

The first half of the Tribulation, Israel is at total peace. From 1948 to the end of the tribulation, there will be no greater time of peace for Israel than the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. Israel will be elated beyond belief because not only for the first time she's finally at real peace, but her neighboring enemies are at war with each other killing one another.

The antichrist confirms a convenant with Israel at the beginning of the tribulation. They won't attack Israel, instead they fight each other, muslims against muslims (Sunnis vs Shiites, Sunnis vs Sunnis) as the antichrist seeks to unified the middle east under his reign during the first 3.5 years.

After the wars, the middle east will lose the oil reserves from Saudi Arabia and other countries as well as suffer financial and economic loses. Saudi Arabia and Eqypt is a complete desolation. They will have no choice but to attack Israel and plunder the country right before the middle of the tribulation.



Not so strange. I just ignored it. Didn't care to discuss what sounded like Preterist thinking. You said Luke's version of the Discourse happened at 70 AD. I don't want to encourage people to dwell on this nonsense.



You have to follow what the bible said, not man's interpretation. It describes the moon turning red like blood. Just go with that. Just because there's an eclipse right before it turns red doesn't mean the Four Blood Moon Event is not what the bible is referring to.

Otherwise, you will have to find out how the moon turns red like blood, and also explain why you believe the Revelation chapter 6 and the 6th Seal happens at the end of the tribulation, which is illogical.
(emphasis added)
...
.

RIGHT, totally, completely, absolutely, altogether, entirely, fully, perfectly, quite, thoroughly, unconditionally, utterly, wholeheartedly, wholly, comprehensively, consummately, exclusively, flat out ILLOGICAL.

I have explained this to Choose Wisely time and time again. You did a great job explaining it too. Will Choose Wisely finally get it?

LAMAD

 

[tranquil]

TPeterY;65412815]

No, my point is not in any way that the blood moon that recently happened is Matt 24. My point is........the excuse that I keep hearing for the sun moon stars verses not being the same for Matt 24 and Rev 6. Is that in Matt the moon darkens and in Rev 6 it becomes as blood. However the recent blood moon shows us that there is an eclipse during the different phases of the blood moon. Therefore the excuse is completely shot down in flames.




Yes, stars falling from heaven can represent angels.
Here is one of many verses where we see that a star falling from heaven is anything but a star.

Rev 9
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.




Strange that you would comment blindly without even looking to see who was present in the account of Luke and who was present in the account of Matthew. You also go right past the fact that Luke refers to events that will happen.......before the nations rise against each other....and Matt refers to events that will happen after nations rise against each other. Your failure to investigate these TRUTHS has you walking blindly.





You are right, blowing smoke was a little weak. How about barking up the complete wrong tree.





I did not say the blood moon that happened was Matt 24. My point is that the blood moon event has an eclipse......darkening the moon.........meaning that the sun moon stars events of Matt 24 are the same events that occur in Rev 6. Again.....I am not saying that the recent blood moon was the fulfillment of Matt 24






Right....and we can see these events in Rev 6........meaning that the tribulation is over in Rev 6 and the wrath of God begins.

All of this "blood moon" stuff is just confusing people. The "Day of the Lord/ Year of recompense for the cause of Zion" happens multiple times - but the thing to understand is who it is happening to.

The Seals are the time of Israel's rebellion. Seal 4 is when the "10 headed" Satan is brought to power - by Israel's "covenant with death and sheol". (Death and Hades given dominion over 1/4th the earth.) (In this manner, the 1st 4 Seals mirror the Daniel 7 beasts from the sea.) In the 5th seal, the martyrs are killed for/ because of Israel's transgressions.

At Seal 6, the "cosmic signs" of the "Day of the Lord's wrath" are signalling the "4 severe judgments" (the 1st 4 Trumpets) upon Israel for its sins of abominable idols and not taking care of the poor. - It's not the "end of the world", it is God's judgment on Israel.

This judgment of the 1st 4 trumpets is the "destruction of Mystery Babylon"/ the 10 kings burning the harlot (Israel and /or Christian Gentile "Israel"). This would be the Psalm 83 war that has a coalition of ten with an 11th (see for yourself https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps 83:5-Ps 83:8 )

These 10 burn the harlot, and take over Israel as God's punishment. (I think this is the Assyrian, the 11th horn, little horn of Dan 7.)

So, why does the 5th Trumpet turn into a woe? Isaiah 3:9-11 NASB - The expression of their faces bears - Bible Gateway

The 1st 4 Trumpets are judgments, and in 5 - 7 there is a splitting of righteous and unrighteous going on. After the judgments, the survivors are both righteous and unrighteous. Unrighteous get woes, righteous don't. (So, Zion is technically founded at the Psalm 83 war and repeatedly burned, continually sorting the righteous and unrighteous.) The unrighteous get with the Assyrian and Edom and worship their gods. The righteous are gathered in the wilderness.

(talking about the "antichrist" is confusing because it's not a very precise term - there's the "wicked princes of Israel" that cause "Israel" to get the Assyrian "antichrist" ruling over them. Then you've got "Gog"/ Russia...)

The 6th Trumpet is the "Day of the Lord's wrath" also! Which is why it says that it lasts for 1 year (Year of recompense for Zion), 1 month (to remove the 3 worthless shepherds), 1 day (of judgment), 1 hour (of trial). Who is it directed at? The Assyrian and Edom and the rest of the coalition of the 10 toes. God allowed sinful Israel to be taken over by her enemies. Then the enemies rule sinfully, then God destroys the enemies, and the remaining righteous "Israel" go back to a "New Jerusalem" and start rebuilding it unto the messiah (Dan 9).

Here's where it gets muddy for me: who destroys the Assyrian who controls "Israel"? Most likely Gog (who has a ten coalition too - is Gog the little horn of Dan 8?). How this relates to Israel handing over the temple to someone for the 1260 days, I don't know.

(150 days/ Trumpet 5, then 396 days/ Trumpet 6; then 1260 days for the Gentile control of the outer court; then 3.5 days for the 2 witnesses to be "raised up"/ (dry bones prophecy in Ezekiel 37) then 490 days/ 70 weeks = 2300 days.

The 4 angels of Trumpet 6 would be the "4 severe judgments" that would be poured out on the unrighteous "Israel" that got with the Assyrian/ Edom 10 toes coalition. The 1st 4 bowl judgments would be poured out on people who got with the antichrist of the 1260 days of the temple takeover?...

Then the bowl 6 war when Christ returns would be a "Day of the Lord's wrath" also, and it would be against all the unrighteous.

 

[iamlamad]

All of this "blood moon" stuff is just confusing people. The "Day of the Lord/ Year of recompense for the cause of Zion" happens multiple times - but the thing to understand is who it is happening to.

The Seals are the time of Israel's rebellion. Seal 4 is when the "10 headed" Satan is brought to power - by Israel's "covenant with death and sheol". (Death and Hades given dominion over 1/4th the earth.) (In this manner, the 1st 4 Seals mirror the Daniel 7 beasts from the sea.) In the 5th seal, the martyrs are killed for/ because of Israel's transgressions.

At Seal 6, the "cosmic signs" of the "Day of the Lord's wrath" are signalling the "4 severe judgments" (the 1st 4 Trumpets) upon Israel for its sins of abominable idols and not taking care of the poor. - It's not the "end of the world", it is God's judgment on Israel.

This judgment of the 1st 4 trumpets is the "destruction of Mystery Babylon"/ the 10 kings burning the harlot (Israel and /or Christian Gentile "Israel"). This would be the Psalm 83 war that has a coalition of ten with an 11th (see for yourself https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps 83:5-Ps 83:8 )

These 10 burn the harlot, and take over Israel as God's punishment. (I think this is the Assyrian, the 11th horn, little horn of Dan 7.)

So, why does the 5th Trumpet turn into a woe? Isaiah 3:9-11 NASB - The expression of their faces bears - Bible Gateway

The 1st 4 Trumpets are judgments, and in 5 - 7 there is a splitting of righteous and unrighteous going on. After the judgments, the survivors are both righteous and unrighteous. Unrighteous get woes, righteous don't. (So, Zion is technically founded at the Psalm 83 war and repeatedly burned, continually sorting the righteous and unrighteous.) The unrighteous get with the Assyrian and Edom and worship their gods. The righteous are gathered in the wilderness.

(talking about the "antichrist" is confusing because it's not a very precise term - there's the "wicked princes of Israel" that cause "Israel" to get the Assyrian "antichrist" ruling over them. Then you've got "Gog"/ Russia...)

The 6th Trumpet is the "Day of the Lord's wrath" also! Which is why it says that it lasts for 1 year (Year of recompense for Zion), 1 month (to remove the 3 worthless shepherds), 1 day (of judgment), 1 hour (of trial). Who is it directed at? The Assyrian and Edom and the rest of the coalition of the 10 toes. God allowed sinful Israel to be taken over by her enemies. Then the enemies rule sinfully, then God destroys the enemies, and the remaining righteous "Israel" go back to a "New Jerusalem" and start rebuilding it unto the messiah (Dan 9).

Here's where it gets muddy for me: who destroys the Assyrian who controls "Israel"? Most likely Gog (who has a ten coalition too - is Gog the little horn of Dan 8?). How this relates to Israel handing over the temple to someone for the 1260 days, I don't know.

(150 days/ Trumpet 5, then 396 days/ Trumpet 6; then 1260 days for the Gentile control of the outer court; then 3.5 days for the 2 witnesses to be "raised up"/ (dry bones prophecy in Ezekiel 37) then 490 days/ 70 weeks = 2300 days.

The 4 angels of Trumpet 6 would be the "4 severe judgments" that would be poured out on the unrighteous "Israel" that got with the Assyrian/ Edom 10 toes coalition. The 1st 4 bowl judgments would be poured out on people who got with the antichrist of the 1260 days of the temple takeover?...

Then the bowl 6 war when Christ returns would be a "Day of the Lord's wrath" also, and it would be against all the unrighteous.

What is all of this? It is human reasoning. ALL the trumpets are judgments against a sinful world that refuses to repent. God's wrath begins with the great earthquake at the 6th seal (The day of His wrath has come) and continues on through the 70th week. Jesus is still has wrath when He returns to the battle of Armageddon.

LAMAD

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 219:

ALL the trumpets are judgments against a sinful world that refuses to repent. God's wrath begins with the great earthquake at the 6th seal (The day of His wrath has come) and continues on through the 70th week. Jesus is still has wrath when He returns to the battle of Armageddon.

Note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, whereas he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).