Now what are you going to do about this????
Daniel 8
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
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Scattershooting about the Rapture, Harvests, Antichrist etc.
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Now what are you going to do about this????
Daniel 8
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
lol, I was just giving the nod at the obvious connection..
pretty sure you know what I mean..
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iamlamad
Lamad
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WHAT END? Keep reading! Daniel TELLS US which "end" he is writing about.
Why did you stop in verse 17? You know you cannot take a verse out of its context.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
"Latter time of WHOSE kingdom?
In context it can ONLY mean the latter time of the FOUR kingdoms - how amazing - the very same kingdom that Antiochus Epiphanes came from!
This is talking about the END of the Grecian Kingdom. Shortly after Antiochus came the time of Mark Antony and Cleopatra and the END of the Grecian empire. Rome took over all the lands of the 4 generals.
LAMAD
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iamlamad
Lamad
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One day, I was just minding my own business, doing what I should have been doing, READING this verse 27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word MIDST, SUDDENLY I heard God speak. I heard what sounded like an audible voice. He said,
"You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation."
I was dumbfounded. I had heard God's voice. But my spirit man was not, and he immediately ask, "how would I find that?" He Immediately answered:
"Whenever I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint to the end of the week, I ALWAYS included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint of the week. "
Then, almost as an afterthought, He added:
"In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"
So I was given a mandate: FIND the exact midpoint "clearly marked." After that, find the entire 70th week "clearly marked."
John thinks I lie about this. He cannot believe God speaks. That is HIS problem. God spoke and I give testimony of it.
When God said that I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked," I also got a "download" of information. He did not say it in words, but when He said that, I also knew HOW: the entire 70th week would use the same MARKER - so when I found out what "marked" the exact midpoint, I would then be able to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked." That understanding came as a revelation download, with no words.
First note what God said: the mentions of the 3 1/2 years ALL are about events that begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week. So the two witnesses will testify in the LAST HALF of the week. Many don't believe this, but it is the truth anyway.
I FOUND the exact midpoint "clearly marked." I will not go into the process of HOW..just know that I found what He sent me to find. The exact midpoint was and is marked by a 7 - the 7th trumpet. So I knew that moment, the entire 70th week would be marked by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week and the 7th vial ends the week.
Believe it or not, it is TRUTH. Most pretribbers when asked cannot even tell correctly where the "TRIB" begins in Revelation, or where the rapture is in Revelation, but they correctly believe they are pretrib.
This was only the BEGINNING of my "school" on Revelation. It went on for several months.
This word, "MIDST" comes from a Hebrew word that means to divide in half. Make no mistake here, the abomination event will come at the EXACT MIDPOINT of the future 70th week. There will therefore be 1260 days from the beginning to the midpoint, and 1260 days to the end.
LAMAD
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iamlamad
Lamad
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John, you have a SERIOUS problem, not being able to hear God. May I suggest you study the book of Acts? I mean, a 5 year study! Read it a hundred times.
Pray in the Holy Spirit as you read.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Oh! Wait! I guess you can't. :-(
LAMAD
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I believe these verses of Daniel 8 are as the verses of Rev 19.
Daniel......He shall stand up against the Prince of princes but will be broken without hand.
Revelation.......And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword.............
Daniel 8
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Rev 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Daniel......He shall stand up against the Prince of princes but will be broken without hand.
Revelation.......And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword.............
Daniel 8
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Rev 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
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Sweet.
I can't force myself to believe this has happened yet.
Dan 8
he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
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Do you think Daniel 8 is some kind of dual prophecy??
I took a great deal of it to be about the Grecian empire..
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iamlamad
Lamad
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My friend, do what you know to do: LEAVE IT in its context!
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Who are "four stood up?" It can be no other than the 4 generals that took the kingdom when Alexander died.
"In the latter time of THEIR kingdom" can mean nothing else but the latter time of the kingdoms of the 4 generals. Seleucus was the king of the northern kingdom, north of Israel. So it particular (referenced to Israel) in the latter time of Seleucus' kingdom. After Deleucus came
Antiochus I (20 years) and after him, Antiochus II Theos (15 years), and after him, Seleucus II Callinicus (21 years) and after him, Antiochus III the Great (35 years). After him, Seleucus IV Philopator (12 years). After him, Antiochus Epiphanes. He died in 154 BC. The kingdom was soon to collapse. The only reason they existed past 100 BC was because no one wanted to absorb them. Note: I left out many others that ruled for a short time. In all, the Seleucus empire lasted 248 years. Antiochus Epiphanes came in the 148th year. By the time he came into power, the entire empire was in a decline. He did not reverse the decline.
Antiochus was very humilated by a Roman ambasador, who drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus and told him he would have to give an answer to Rome before he stepped out of the circle; else be a war with Rome. He was therefore forced to withdraw from Egypt and Cyprus. It was on the way back from this humiliation that he discovered an uprising in Jerusalem had removed the high priest he has put in place. This made him furious. Within three days he had massacred 40 thousand, and enslaved another 40 thousand. Shortly after this, he installed the image of Zeus in the holy place in the temple and forbid any kind of worship of the true God Jehovah.
OF COURSE after he died, the temple had to be cleansed and rededicated. Since an angel was explaining the vision we must back up to:
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
This then, was for the cleansing of the Temple. Most of the chapter is dedicated to battle between Alexander and the Medes and Persians, then after that, to the four Generals and after that to Antiochus of the Seleucid dynasty.
Is it possible that one verse has a double reference, a second reference to the Beast of Rev. 13? Antiochus died of a terrible disease. He did not die in battle nor was he engaged in battle when he died. He was not "taken" in battle.
Does "broken without hand" fit being captured by Jesus and throne into the lake of fire as will happen to the Beast? It is possible, but I don't think so.
Lamad
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7 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
I just think it is for the time of the end like it says. No one has stood against the Prince of princes and been broken without hands
Dan 8
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
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Really good post.
However, it does not seem logical that if Antiochus was in yr 148 of the 248 yrs that he stood up in the latter time of the kingdom.
It all looks like it fits in the time of Antiochus, however, it is the time of the end, and this person stands against the Prince of princes. It sure seem like the time when Jesus comes with his army on white horses. The sacrifice is stopped during the tribulation so.......
Anyway, I thought your post was excellent. Well done.
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iamlamad
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Thanks. Compared to what their kingdom was at the beginning ...stretching all the way to India.....it was insignificant at the time of Antoichus Epiphanes......that is insignificant except to Israel. If we consider the definition of "latter" it could mean, closer to the end than the beginning. Perhaps that would fit.
I think you need to take a much closer look at Daniel's mentions of "end" in this chapter. It was about the vision he had just seen: a he goat (Greece) with one notable horn (Alexander). He came to a ram with two horns (Media and Persia) that had been pushing North, South and West that no one could defeat. In the vision, the goat thoroughly trounced the ram. So the goat became very great (Alexander the GREAT) but his one great horn broke and four came up in its place. Out of one of these four horns came up another that waxed great - towards the South, the East and towards Israel, the "pleasant" land. This great horn cast down some of the stars to the ground and trampled on them. he magnified himself even to the Prince of the Host, and took away the daily sacrifice.
Then Daniel heard someone say, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" The answer given was 2300 days.
Then Gabriel came to explain this vision. The first think he said was "
Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision." AT this time, I guess near the end of the Babylonian captivity, none of this vision had taken place - it was all future. We have to keep reading to find the end of what.
the again Gabriel said, "Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be." Then Gabriel begins to explain the vision: the two horns on the ram are the kings of Media and Persia. The he goat was Greece, and the horn was the first king. Was Alexander really the first "king" of Greece? No. But he was the first king in this great expansion of Greece that Alexander began. The first king was broken and four stood up: four kingdoms out of one.
Then Gabriel says "in the latter time of THEIR kingdom" a fierce King will come. This is a key verse to understanding what "the end" as told by Gabriel means. It is interesting to note, Gabriel says "his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power..." It seems Antiochus had demonic or Satanic help! My guess is, the same power that was behind Alexander not became the power behind Antiochus. Satan's plan was to go against Israel, but Alexander would not. Antiochus would.
Remember, this is all the explanation of the vision. Gabriel said this king would "shall destroy the mighty and the holy people." And that fits well with what Antiochus did.
"he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes" I take this to mean, anyone who came against Israel is really coming against the King of Kings, the God that MADE Israel.
"he shall be broken without hand." Antiochus died of a terrible disease, perhaps cancer. I think this fits him well also.
So what was the "indignation?" It was Antiochus' new laws that forbid any kind of worship of the God of the Jews. It was Antiochus taking away the daily sacrifice and killing a pig on the altar, and finally setting up an image of Zeus in the temple. So Michael talks about the end of THAT indignation.
LAMAD
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What do you make of the host of heaven and stars being cast to the ground. I can't see this occurring in the days of Antiochus, but I can see it happening at the six seal after the tribulation of those days.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
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iamlamad
Lamad
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Remember, he saw the vision, then an angel showed him what was meant by the vision.
So in the vision he saw this:
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
And the angel translated for him:
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
This is perhaps the best we can do since neither Gabriel or Daniel made it any clearer. I have not received any special revelation on these verses. I can only read them as you do. It would seem, reading between the lines, there was a great spiritual battle going on behind the people involved. It also seems that for a while the demonic forces were winning. Remember: "But NOT by his own power. He had demonic help, probably Satan himself or at least a ruler class demon. Where was Michael during this time? God does not tell us. Just the fact that he was "prospering" tells me that for a while the demonic forces were winning. So my guess is the "host" would be angels on God's side, and the "stars" would be those Jews that were dedicated to God and His purposes. By "stamping" on them, I picture him as being braggadocios about preventing them from practicing their religion and conscience.
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Remember, Antiochus did not consider the temple as off limits to him or his men. He sacrificed a pig on the altar. Then he set up an image of Zeus....probably in the holy of holies! In doing this, he was trampling on the "host"; either the Jews or or God's angels that were to protect the Jews, or both.
Just a Gentile entering the temple would fit the temple being "trampled." But I am sure Antiochus had an army with him, so it is likely MANY gentiles entered the temple.
There are two "hosts" being written of here; the heavenly host or angels, and a demonic force sent to help Antiochus.
10...it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
I believe this is speaking of a heavenly host; angels, and the prince of the host, a pre-incarnate Lord.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
I believe this is a host of fallen angels. They were allowed to come because of the transgressions of the Jews. They opened the door to demonic attacks by sinning against God. It was this demonic "host" that cast the truth to the ground and that prospered. Perhaps the secret as to WHY this demonic force was allowed to prosper goes right back to "transgression."
13 ..., to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
I think this is speaking of the heavenly host, angels. As long as the demonic force was prospering, the heavenly host was being "trodden under foot."
I really think all this is speaking of what happened THEN, not sometime in the future.
the "Pulpit" commentary has this to say: "The crucial point is - What is the meaning of the "host of heaven"? The general consensus of interpreters is that this refers to Israel. Some maintain that the best of heaven is Israel, and the stars their leaders (Glassins); the stars are the Levites (Grotius). Moses Stuart would hold the host to be the priests, and the stars the teachers."
It also shows that the Septuagint has an entirely different reading for these difficult verses, that it (the horn) was magnified to heaven and HEAVEN cast it down! However, both the Peshitta and the Vulgate agree with the Massoretic against the Septuagint.
This is possible, it is just not what I think this is saying. However, I know NOTHING of Hebrew. I have to go by other's translations.
Gill had this to say: "And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven,.... The people of the Jews, the army of the living God, the church militant, among whom were many of the citizens of heaven, whose names are written there; such was the insolence of this king, as to molest and disturb them:"
I think he is far off from the truth. However, it seems I am way outnumbered; all of the commentaries think the "host of heaven" must refer to the Jewish leaders.
In the end, I don't have a good answer for you. I am only guessing. I don't like to guess. Revealed knowledge is much better....I just don't have it on this. However, you asked, so I gave it my best guess!
LAMAD
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Remember, he saw the vision, then an angel showed him what was meant by the vision.
So in the vision he saw this:
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
And the angel translated for him:
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
This is perhaps the best we can do since neither Gabriel or Daniel made it any clearer. I have not received any special revelation on these verses. I can only read them as you do. It would seem, reading between the lines, there was a great spiritual battle going on behind the people involved. It also seems that for a while the demonic forces were winning. Remember: "But NOT by his own power. He had demonic help, probably Satan himself or at least a ruler class demon. Where was Michael during this time? God does not tell us. Just the fact that he was "prospering" tells me that for a while the demonic forces were winning. So my guess is the "host" would be angels on God's side, and the "stars" would be those Jews that were dedicated to God and His purposes. By "stamping" on them, I picture him as being braggadocios about preventing them from practicing their religion and conscience.
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Remember, Antiochus did not consider the temple as off limits to him or his men. He sacrificed a pig on the altar. Then he set up an image of Zeus....probably in the holy of holies! In doing this, he was trampling on the "host"; either the Jews or or God's angels that were to protect the Jews, or both.
Just a Gentile entering the temple would fit the temple being "trampled." But I am sure Antiochus had an army with him, so it is likely MANY gentiles entered the temple.
There are two "hosts" being written of here; the heavenly host or angels, and a demonic force sent to help Antiochus.
10...it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
I believe this is speaking of a heavenly host; angels, and the prince of the host, a pre-incarnate Lord.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
I believe this is a host of fallen angels. They were allowed to come because of the transgressions of the Jews. They opened the door to demonic attacks by sinning against God. It was this demonic "host" that cast the truth to the ground and that prospered. Perhaps the secret as to WHY this demonic force was allowed to prosper goes right back to "transgression."
13 ..., to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
I think this is speaking of the heavenly host, angels. As long as the demonic force was prospering, the heavenly host was being "trodden under foot."
I really think all this is speaking of what happened THEN, not sometime in the future.
the "Pulpit" commentary has this to say: "The crucial point is - What is the meaning of the "host of heaven"? The general consensus of interpreters is that this refers to Israel. Some maintain that the best of heaven is Israel, and the stars their leaders (Glassins); the stars are the Levites (Grotius). Moses Stuart would hold the host to be the priests, and the stars the teachers."
It also shows that the Septuagint has an entirely different reading for these difficult verses, that it (the horn) was magnified to heaven and HEAVEN cast it down! However, both the Peshitta and the Vulgate agree with the Massoretic against the Septuagint.
This is possible, it is just not what I think this is saying. However, I know NOTHING of Hebrew. I have to go by other's translations.
Gill had this to say: "And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven,.... The people of the Jews, the army of the living God, the church militant, among whom were many of the citizens of heaven, whose names are written there; such was the insolence of this king, as to molest and disturb them:"
I think he is far off from the truth. However, it seems I am way outnumbered; all of the commentaries think the "host of heaven" must refer to the Jewish leaders.
In the end, I don't have a good answer for you. I am only guessing. I don't like to guess. Revealed knowledge is much better....I just don't have it on this. However, you asked, so I gave it my best guess!
LAMAD
These are some tough verses for sure. I have searched around on the net and can't see anything that seems conclusive.
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Bible2;65147709]
So this BLOOD MOON crushed your argument
Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are the same event. Your argument that the moon will appear blood red in Rev 6 and that the moon will not give its light in Matt 24 cuts no butter. In fact, plainly put, your argument is wrong.
I stayed up and watched the blood moon last night. Before the moon went to red there was a total eclipse.
So to conclude...........Rev 6:12-13 and Matt 24:29 is the same event.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
So this BLOOD MOON crushed your argument
Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are the same event. Your argument that the moon will appear blood red in Rev 6 and that the moon will not give its light in Matt 24 cuts no butter. In fact, plainly put, your argument is wrong.
I stayed up and watched the blood moon last night. Before the moon went to red there was a total eclipse.
So to conclude...........Rev 6:12-13 and Matt 24:29 is the same event.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
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