LDS Scathing Lawsuit Seeks Punitive Damages From Mormon Church

[Ironhold]

But only from LDS-approved/'faith affirming' sources, right? So it's not really studying things out for themselves.

I'm aware of mainstream Christian ministers yanking books out of peoples' hands or otherwise telling them to destroy things they don't like.

I'm *not* aware of an LDS minister doing the same.

 

[dzheremi]

People criticized Moses, People criticized Abraham, People criticized Peter, People criticized Paul, and where did it get them? Jesus said keep the commandments. LOVE your neighbor as yourself. I think it is best to LOVE one another.

This is not an answer to question I asked. The question is: why did one of your high-ranking leaders repeat it as recently in 2007, if that opinion is so discredited in Mormonism now?

If you don't have an answer for this, fine, but if you're going to quote my post I'd appreciate it if your reply at least got within a few million lightyears of actually answering the question in it.

 

[He is the way]

This is not an answer to question I asked. The question is: why did one of your high-ranking leaders repeat it as recently in 2007, if that opinion is so discredited in Mormonism now?

If you don't have an answer for this, fine, but if you're going to quote my post I'd appreciate it if your reply at least got within a few million lightyears of actually answering the question in it.

You said: "But only from LDS-approved/'faith affirming' sources, right? So it's not really studying things out for themselves.

And I'm sure there's a faith affirming way to interpret "It is wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true."

I didn't watch the video as I do not want to make those types of videos more popular. I was responding to whether it is wrong to criticize God's prophets (leaders). I don't believe it is a good thing to criticize church leaders. That being said Jesus did criticize His apostles and Joseph Smith was chastised by God on several occasions. David was also chastised by God as were others who strayed from the correct path. Paul was also chastened by Jesus because he was on the wrong path, but he changed his ways. Except for Jesus Christ all God has to work with are imperfect people. It is our responsibility to become as perfect as we can by keeping the commandments. Abraham and Job are certainly good examples for us to follow, but the best example is Jesus Christ. We have the spirit of truth (the Holy Ghost) to guide us.

 

[Rescued One]

... It is our responsibility to become as perfect as we can by keeping the commandments.

There is no chance of becoming perfect as you can by keeping the commandments.
"As you can" guarantees imperfection and there is nothing perfect about imperfection.

 

[He is the way]

There is no chance of becoming perfect as you can by keeping the commandments.
"As you can" guarantees imperfection and there is nothing perfect about imperfection.

Yes we are imperfect and we do make mistakes, but willful disobedience is wrong:

(New Testament | Hebrews 10:26)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 

[dzheremi]

You said: "But only from LDS-approved/'faith affirming' sources, right? So it's not really studying things out for themselves.

And I'm sure there's a faith affirming way to interpret "It is wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true."

I didn't watch the video as I do not want to make those types of videos more popular. I was responding to whether it is wrong to criticize God's prophets (leaders). I don't believe it is a good thing to criticize church leaders. That being said Jesus did criticize His apostles and Joseph Smith was chastised by God on several occasions. David was also chastised by God as were others who strayed from the correct path. Paul was also chastened by Jesus because he was on the wrong path, but he changed his ways. Except for Jesus Christ all God has to work with are imperfect people. It is our responsibility to become as perfect as we can by keeping the commandments. Abraham and Job are certainly good examples for us to follow, but the best example is Jesus Christ. We have the spirit of truth (the Holy Ghost) to guide us.

So then following the example of Christ, who did indeed criticize religious leaders, would mean that your elder was wrong when he said that criticism is wrong to engage in even if the criticism is true.

I am glad that he said that, then. It is good to have evidence of Mormon leaders teaching against the example of Christ, so that it can't then later be denied. You may not watch the video (though I believe everyone here could benefit from it), but it is there for all those who may wonder on what basis Mormonism may rightly be criticized. This sort of thing is a clear example.

 

[dzheremi]

P.S.- Any group in which the leadership is considered above criticism may be better called a cult, so it is also evidence of why Mormonism may be grouped among various other modern cults, even though it is obviously less extreme in its methods of control than some others (e.g., Scientology).

 

[He is the way]

So then following the example of Christ, who did indeed criticize religious leaders, would mean that your elder was wrong when he said that criticism is wrong to engage in even if the criticism is true.

I am glad that he said that, then. It is good to have evidence of Mormon leaders teaching against the example of Christ, so that it can't then later be denied. You may not watch the video (though I believe everyone here could benefit from it), but it is there for all those who may wonder on what basis Mormonism may rightly be criticized. This sort of thing is a clear example.

As I said we are imperfect every one of us except Jesus Christ and we do make mistakes, that does not mean that our church leaders are teaching against the example of Jesus Christ, they are not, they are teaching following Jesus Christ and His example. Some people do not like the words of Jesus Christ.

 

[mmksparbud]

People criticized Moses, People criticized Abraham, People criticized Peter, People criticized Paul, and where did it get them? Jesus said keep the commandments. LOVE your neighbor as yourself. I think it is best to LOVE one another.

They never said not to criticize them "even if they are wrong!" Jesus was never wrong so you can cross Him off your list! It is not the criticizing that is the problem---it is the reasons for it. With Moses--Miriam and Aaron were jealous, in the case of Paul, they had a right to criticize for he was being disingenuous. Also, those who were criticizing the apostles were the Jews and of course they would...no apostle said not to criticize them. To refrain from pointing out error, esp. among our leaders, would be horribly, horribly wrong. It certainly is not loving to leave a member in the wrong. And, as has been mentioned---one of the signs of a cult. Anyone criticizing a cult leader is swiftly dealt with, with severe persecutions and often, death.

 

[He is the way]

P.S.- Any group in which the leadership is considered above criticism may be better called a cult, so it is also evidence of why Mormonism may be grouped among various other modern cults, even though it is obviously less extreme in its methods of control than some others (e.g., Scientology).

As I said before "People criticized Moses, People criticized Abraham, People criticized Peter, People criticized Paul, and where did it get them?"

The whole duty of man is to keep the commandments of God.

 

[mmksparbud]

As I said before "People criticized Moses, People criticized Abraham, People criticized Peter, People criticized Paul, and where did it get them?"

The whole duty of man is to keep the commandments of God.

Read post #49

 

[He is the way]

They never said not to criticize them "even if they are wrong!" Jesus was never wrong so you can cross Him off your list! It is not the criticizing that is the problem---it is the reasons for it. With Moses--Miriam and Aaron were jealous, in the case of Paul, they had a right to criticize for he was being disingenuous. Also, those who were criticizing the apostles were the Jews and of course they would...no apostle said not to criticize them. To refrain from pointing out error, esp. among our leaders, would be horribly, horribly wrong. It certainly is not loving to leave a member in the wrong. And, as has been mentioned---one of the signs of a cult. Anyone criticizing a cult leader is swiftly dealt with, with severe persecutions and often, death.

You said: "Anyone criticizing a cult leader is swiftly dealt with, with severe persecutions and often, death." That is true, people are still being stoned and decapitated. But not in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

 

[dzheremi]

The commandments of God most definitely do not include fidelity to church leaders even when they are wrong, so that's neither here nor there. In Christianity, wrongly-teaching leaders have always been criticized, and such criticism is considered justified and necessary to correct error. Recall, for instance, how St. Paul withstood St. Peter to his face, because St. Peter had accepted the Judiazers. Further (and several centuries later), I believe it was St. John Chrysostom who warned that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.

Once again, Mormonism is glaringly out of step with both the scriptures and the early Church.

 

[He is the way]

Read post #49

Jesus was not on the list, but I did quote Him.

 

[He is the way]

The commandments of God most definitely do not include fidelity to church leaders even when they are wrong, so that's neither here nor there. In Christianity, wrongly-teaching leaders have always been criticized, and such criticism is considered justified and necessary to correct error. Recall, for instance, how St. Paul withstood St. Peter to his face, because St. Peter had accepted the Judiazers. Further (and several centuries later), I believe it was St. John Chrysostom who warned that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.

Once again, Mormonism is glaringly out of step with both the scriptures and the early Church.

The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter day Saints is spot on with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: "Anyone criticizing a cult leader is swiftly dealt with, with severe persecutions and often, death." That is true, people are still being stoned and decapitated. But not in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

And who would know if anyone is too scared to talk?

 

[He is the way]

And who would know if anyone is too scared to talk?

I know, and members who leave the church know. I stay in the church because I know it is true, not because I feel threatened in any way. I know people who have left and we are still good friends. Jesus loved the Samaritans even though they were looked down upon by the Jews. It was the self righteous, self centered and evil that He eschewed. But He did not go around killing them.

 

[Peter1000]

Then why did one of your high-ranking leaders (I believe it is Elder Oaks, but you would know them on sight better than I) repeat it as recently in 2007, if that opinion is so discredited in Mormonism now? (See the video in post #28, where he says exactly that at ~0:33-0:40)



But only from LDS-approved/'faith affirming' sources, right? So it's not really studying things out for themselves.

And I'm sure there's a faith affirming way to interpret "It is wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true."

There is a right way to criticize and there is a wrong way to criticize. Is it not the same in your church and for your church leaders?

 

[Peter1000]

And who would know if anyone is too scared to talk?

Too scared of what? Decapitation? If someone is too scared to talk, they need to be unscared, and start a dialogue. But criticize the right way, not the wrong way. Is that not so in your church against your church leaders, a wrong way to criticize and a right way to criticize?

 

[mmksparbud]

Too scared of what? Decapitation? If someone is too scared to talk, they need to be unscared, and start a dialogue. But criticize the right way, not the wrong way. Is that not so in your church against your church leaders, a wrong way to criticize and a right way to criticize?

Not that I know of! People always criticize the leadership. Some get more than others. You can't make everyone happy. There are people who just seem to thrive on criticizing others. It's in every church. And there are those that oppose the criticism. If it is not justified, it is wrong and the person will be told why they are wrong. Of it is justified, then something gets done about it. Unless you mean that there is a chain of command that should be followed. Generally, there is, But nobody, but nobody, has ever been told to not point out error, even when there is wrong being done---that is outrageous.

Isa_58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

Most churches are only to eager to point out the failings of others.