Scapegoats

Epiphoskei

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There is a single divide that separates all theories of the atonement into two fundamental camps: those theories wherein Christ took our sins, and those wherein He did not. On this topic, I would submit the following:

Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

...

For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken
When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place.

Yes or no?
 

Van

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Not sure I understand the opening post. Did the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world? John 1:29. Did Jesus save His people from their sins? Matthew 1:21. And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5.
He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When Christ died on the cross, He completed the work that He was sent into the world to complete, thus He said, It is Finished. He has paid the price, the ransom for all mankind, so in a sense He had saved the world, all mankind. But did the finished work of Christ put anyone spiritually in Christ where we receive the reconciliation provided? Nope.

Only when God spiritually places us "in Christ" are our sins taken away for in Him there is no sin. Who are His people? Everyone who is spiritually in Christ, only spiritually born again children of God are His people. In Christ we are justified which means even though we sin, it is just as if we did not sin.

Is anyone's sins taken away before they are spiritually placed in Christ? Nope.
 
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Van

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Hi Jesusfreak5000, yes the OT saints were in a temporary but very comfortable holding cell in Hades called Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22). Now how did they get from there to heaven? By being spiritually placed in Christ. Hebrews 11:40 says that apart from us they were not made perfect. And how are we made perfect? By being placed in Christ. Colossians 1:28.
 
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Epiphoskei

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It's a simple question. Whereas many views appeal to a variety of verses to try to argue that Christ by dying kinda-sorta did some vague mysterious work related to salvation, Scripture says Christ took our sins. Yes or no?

Certain people who skip to the end of the book and try to define atonement from the New Testament only with no Old Testament context imagine that certain New Testament verses can describe a different kind of atonement which avoids the "unjust" exchange wherein one person can be punished for another one, but that concept of sin-transference underlies the entire Hebrew understanding of Atonement. The Old Testament says our Scapegoat will bear our sins. Yes or no?

All discussion on Christ's atonement must proceed from the answer to this question.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Hi Jesusfreak5000, yes the OT saints were in a temporary but very comfortable holding cell in Hades called Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22). Now how did they get from there to heaven? By being spiritually placed in Christ. Hebrews 11:40 says that apart from us they were not made perfect. And how are we made perfect? By being placed in Christ. Colossians 1:28.

Yes I know, I am just giving you a hard time. But those in Hades were awaiting Christ, already having placed their faith in Him. Christ's death did finally accomplish reconciliation for them.
 
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Van

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It is a simple question and I am sorry but I thought I answered it with "Only when God spiritually places us "in Christ" are our sins taken away for in Him there is no sin."
When Christ died He provided general reconciliation to all mankind. He became our propitiation or means of salvation. When God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually places us in Christ, we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ.
 
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Epiphoskei

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It's a yes or no question.

Let's put it another way.

On Friday April 3, 33 A.D., did God lay on Christ the iniquity of Van, Epiphoskei, Jesusfreak5000, etc.? Did Christ then bear our sins out into a solitary place? I'm not asking how your theory of the atonement argues that reconciliation plays out, I'm asking whether, in dying, Christ took our sins?
 
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cygnusx1

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It's a yes or no question.

Let's put it another way.

On Friday April 3, 33 A.D., did God lay on Christ the iniquity of Van, Epiphoskei, Jesusfreak5000, etc.? Did Christ then bear our sins out into a solitary place? I'm not asking how your theory of the atonement argues that reconciliation plays out, I'm asking whether, in dying, Christ took our sins?

yes .

faith merely appropriates what is already ours , we no more remove our guilt by our faith than we "make Christ Lord and saviour by faith " ..... salvation is secured for many before they are even born :)
 
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Hammster

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It's a yes or no question.

Let's put it another way.

On Friday April 3, 33 A.D., did God lay on Christ the iniquity of Van, Epiphoskei, Jesusfreak5000, etc.? Did Christ then bear our sins out into a solitary place? I'm not asking how your theory of the atonement argues that reconciliation plays out, I'm asking whether, in dying, Christ took our sins?
Yes. That is where my hope lies. I am a sinner. I deserve a punishment, a penalty, if you will, for my sins. In the atoning work of Christ, my sins were laid upon Him (imputed). In that aspect, just like the goat, He was a substitute.
 
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_JJM

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No, I don't believe that God put my sins into Jesus and then judicially punished him for my sins as if he were me. I believe that the Devil and sinful man showed wrath against the Living Word of God at the cross, not the Eternal Father.

I believe that Jesus suffered through my sins, as a person sinned against, and instead of reviling, he remained quiet and humble, to show that God in man chooses to suffer through the sins of others to allow them the chance to say sorry and be reconciled.

Through faith in the Eternal King who did this for me, I have full assurance in the forgiveness of God, and now I am charged to do the same for others, to fill up in my flesh the same sufferings, to lead others to the forgiveness of God as well.
 
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bling

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I do not like taking one incomplete image of Christ in the Old Testament and saying “That is exactly what Christ did.” The Old Testament images were but a shadow of the reality we have with Christ going to the cross. The “strong man” that led the goat out to the wilderness (a place where the Jews felt satan dwelled) was also an image of Christ. All the lamb sacrifices were images of Christ. Abraham offering up Isaac and God supplying the substitute is another image of Christ going to the cross.
Christ bore our sins on the cross, which for deity to handle sin may have been more punishment, then what we see in the physical torture and death on the cross.
Whatever our understanding of the scapegoat is it has to agree with Hebrew 10: If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The scapegoat did not take the “guilt” of the people away and if we think about Christ as just our scapegoat the guilt will still remain. When you realize that Christ is suffering for you and because of you, then you will suffer also, because your innocent brother is should not have suffered. If you had not sinned there would have been “another way” for man to fulfill his objective without sinning, so you personally are responsible for Christ being on the cross. This is how you can be punished for your sins without having to physically suffer for your sins. The only reason the cross does not debilitate you with depression is the fact there is tremendous Love at the cross.

God can now forgive you of your sins without your having concern of being further punished in the future since you have been punished.

Atonement is not one simple idea.
 
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Van

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OK, this is fun. For the third time, when Christ died and God accepted His sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world, Christ reconciled all mankind to God. But were my sins taken away? Nope. My sins were taken away when I was spiritually placed in Christ, where I underwent the circumcision of Christ and my body of flesh (sins) were removed.

So what did Christ take away? The sin of the world. Well if our individual sins were not removed when Christ died, what does it mean for the sin of the world to be taken away? He paid the ransom for all mankind, saint so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Anyone placed spiritually in Him has his sins removed, everybody else faces justice in the afterlife. Picture God on one side of the cross and mankind on the other, with the gap between being the sin of the world. There is no way to reconcile that, to bring mankind to God, unless the sin is taken out of the way, i.e nailed to the cross if you will. So anyone can cross that gap through Christ, because our individual sins are removed, the circumcision of Christ. Picture a bridge between God and mankind, with no way to get across the barrier of sin, unless you use the bridge. In effect the "gap" was removed when the bridge was put in place, but unless we use the bridge we are still separated from God, dead in our trespasses and sins.
 
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Hammster

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The scapegoat did not take the “guilt” of the people away and if we think about Christ as just our scapegoat the guilt will still remain. When you realize that Christ is suffering for you and because of you, then you will suffer also, because your innocent brother is should not have suffered.
You have confused guilt with feeling guilty they are not synonomous, and in fact can be separate
 
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_JJM

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OK, this is fun. For the third time, when Christ died and God accepted His sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world, Christ reconciled all mankind to God. But were my sins taken away? Nope. My sins were taken away when I was spiritually placed in Christ, where I underwent the circumcision of Christ and my body of flesh (sins) were removed.

So what did Christ take away? The sin of the world. Well if our individual sins were not removed when Christ died, what does it mean for the sin of the world to be taken away? He paid the ransom for all mankind, saint so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Anyone placed spiritually in Him has his sins removed, everybody else faces justice in the afterlife. Picture God on one side of the cross and mankind on the other, with the gap between being the sin of the world. There is no way to reconcile that, to bring mankind to God, unless the sin is taken out of the way, i.e nailed to the cross if you will. So anyone can cross that gap through Christ, because our individual sins are removed, the circumcision of Christ. Picture a bridge between God and mankind, with no way to get across the barrier of sin, unless you use the bridge. In effect the "gap" was removed when the bridge was put in place, but unless we use the bridge we are still separated from God, dead in our trespasses and sins.

Hi Van,

What is the strength of Sin?

1 Cor 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

What were we alive once without?

Romans 7:9
I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

What was wiped out at the cross?

Col 2:14
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

What was abolished in his flesh?

Eph 2:15
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

What were we held by?

Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

So what was in Christ at the cross? Our Sins?

What was the accusation that Pilate nailed to the cross concerning the Christ?

Isn't He the Word that became Flesh?

Deut 32:46-48
and he said to them: “Set your hearts on all the words which I testify among you today, which you shall command your children to be careful to observe—all the words of this law. 47 For it is not a futile thing for you, because it is your life, and by this word you shall prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess.”

1 John 1:1-7
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your[a] joy may be full.

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:7-8
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
 
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Epiphoskei

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No, I don't believe that God put my sins into Jesus and then judicially punished him for my sins as if he were me. I believe that the Devil and sinful man showed wrath against the Living Word of God at the cross, not the Eternal Father.

I believe that Jesus suffered through my sins, as a person sinned against, and instead of reviling, he remained quiet and humble, to show that God in man chooses to suffer through the sins of others to allow them the chance to say sorry and be reconciled.

Through faith in the Eternal King who did this for me, I have full assurance in the forgiveness of God, and now I am charged to do the same for others, to fill up in my flesh the same sufferings, to lead others to the forgiveness of God as well.

Again, I'm not asking for your specific theology of the Atonement. I'm asking you to affirm or deny specific scriptural passages about it.

I'll come clean: posts like the above were the kind I was trying to elicit with the OP. Thus far everyone here who doesn't espouse some kind of substitutionary atonement has been trying to squirm away from giving a simple "Yes and amen" to the verse "The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." I think that's significant.
 
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Epiphoskei

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OK, this is fun. For the third time, when Christ died and God accepted His sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world, Christ reconciled all mankind to God. But were my sins taken away? Nope. My sins were taken away when I was spiritually placed in Christ, where I underwent the circumcision of Christ and my body of flesh (sins) were removed.

So what did Christ take away? The sin of the world. Well if our individual sins were not removed when Christ died, what does it mean for the sin of the world to be taken away? He paid the ransom for all mankind, saint so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Anyone placed spiritually in Him has his sins removed, everybody else faces justice in the afterlife. Picture God on one side of the cross and mankind on the other, with the gap between being the sin of the world. There is no way to reconcile that, to bring mankind to God, unless the sin is taken out of the way, i.e nailed to the cross if you will. So anyone can cross that gap through Christ, because our individual sins are removed, the circumcision of Christ. Picture a bridge between God and mankind, with no way to get across the barrier of sin, unless you use the bridge. In effect the "gap" was removed when the bridge was put in place, but unless we use the bridge we are still separated from God, dead in our trespasses and sins.

For the third time I'm not asking you to lay out your theology, I'm asking you to say yes or no to Biblical language. If you can't do that without launching into a systematic theology to defend yourself, your systematic theology might need reconsidering.

On Friday April 3, 33 A.D., did God lay on Christ the iniquity of us all?
 
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