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Saving your Catholic children from being "saved"! John 3:16

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by StevenMerten, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    I wouldn't declare your faith invalid, Steven. Last night I listened to a sermon by an Evangelical preacher I used to enjoy, and realized that he and I had totally different understandings of what "saved" meant.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  2. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello concretcamper,
    I agree with you. Just in case other readers do not know what anathema means.

    ANATHEMA

    In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate , so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."...
    ...He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

    Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema
    Note: All emphasis in bolding and underlining has been added. Follow New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia link for full text.
     
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  3. Tutorman

    Tutorman Charismatic Episcopalian

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    Tallguy88 has it right
     
  4. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    When you have protestants in your corner on the salvation issue, you know you've got it wrong!
     
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  5. Tutorman

    Tutorman Charismatic Episcopalian

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    Is Salvation by God's grace or works that we do? @Tallguy88 says salvation is by God's grace (something I was taught as a Catholic and still hold on to) Steve says salvation must also be of works. As I quoted from James Akin on Catholic Answers:

    Of course it does not end there as Protestants teach and must obey God as Christ has said, but initial justification is by God's grace as The Council of Trent states: "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification.."
     
  6. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    But Trent goes on. I'm reading about Teresa of Lisieux right now; her theology of littleness, love, divine mercy, and works is subtle, and difficult to sum up. But Story of a Soul is one book that imho should be read by anyone wanting to deeply and better understand what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation.
     
  7. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    Nope, tallguy never used the word Grace, if he did, I would have never commented.

    We need to understand that faith and grace are 2 different things.
     
  8. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Supporter

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  9. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Supporter

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    Grace through faith.
     
  10. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    This joint declaration does not back up your statement:

    "I’m just posting scripture. Salvation is by faith and true faith is evidenced by works."
     
  11. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Supporter

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    31.We confess together that persons are justified by faith in the gospel "apart from works prescribed by the law" (Rom3:28). Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation. We also confess that God's commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God's will which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also.

    37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.
     
  12. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    To shed a little clarity on what the Church teaches about faith and justification I give you Trent:

    "But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]"

    More from Trent:

    "For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated" GRACE

    You said:
    "I’m just posting scripture. Salvation is by faith and true faith is evidenced by works."

    Trent:
    "For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body"

    This says faith is a good work, not the cause of salvation.

    Justification and Salvation ARE NOT interchangeable words!

    Grace, faith, salvation, justification. I have seen many Catholic wrongly use these words when describing what the Church teaches.
     
  13. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Supporter

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    Then why did the Church sign the document saying that we believe essentially the same things about salvation that the Lutherans Do?
     
  14. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    We don't believe essentially the same thing.
     
  15. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Supporter

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    That’s what the joint declaration boils down to. Why did the Church sign it if we don’t believe essentially the same thing?
     
  16. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    Declarations of joint theological agreement are often taken to mean different things by different people. Lutherans might be more likely to point out positives, and not fully understand the realities behind the differences.

    While Catholics agree that faith and grace are essential to salvation, they would not go as far as to say that our salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and nothing else. Or that we do not have a role in where we end up based on what we do, say, think, and how we live.
     
  17. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hey Tallguy and Tutorman,

    Do we all agree that Baptized Infant Catholics are saved? Then why are the Protestant Pentecostals trying to 'save' Catholics? If we all agree that Baptized baby Catholics are saved, then lets get on with Christ's many teachings on obeying God's Commandments and feeding the poor if we wish to go to heaven.

    Justification: Process or One-Time Deal?
    THE CATHOLIC ANSWER:

    The Catholic Church actually agrees with the above, at least on a couple points. First, as baptized Catholics, we can agree that we have been justified and we have been saved. Thus, in one sense, our justification and salvation is in the past as a completed action. The initial grace of justification and salvation we receive in baptism is a done deal. And Catholics do not believe we were partially justified or partially saved at baptism. Catholics believe, as St. Peter said in I Peter 3:21, “Baptism… now saves you…” Ananias said to Saul of Tarsus, “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.” That means the new Christian has been “washed… sanctified… [and] justified” as I Cor. 6:11 clearly teaches. That much is a done deal; thus, it is entirely proper to say we “have been justified” and we “have been saved.”

    Quoted from: Justification: Process or One-Time Deal? | Catholic Answers
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  18. StevenMerten

    StevenMerten I Love You, God!

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    Hello Tallguy,
    A great number of Protestants do not think Christ’s answer to obey the Commandments is the perfect answer to the question, What must I do to go to heaven? St. Paul seems to directly oppose Jesus answer in Galatians 2:15. Do we agree that St Paul agrees with Jesus answer?

    Jesus says,

    Matthew 19:16
    "Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, obey the Commandments. "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied "You shall not kill"; 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'You shall not steal'; 'You shall not bear false witness'; 'Honor your father and mother'; and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

    St Paul says,

    Galatians 2:15

    We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, (yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.,
     
  19. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually, since the Lutheran-Catholic document on Justification, you are only half-right. We can agree if we drop the polemics, or rather if they drop the polemics. If we all drop the polemics. We know it's far more than just saying one has faith. We all know it's not just works. We all know it's by grace. We all know Luther fudged his translation of Romans. We all know Jesus expected a lot better of us than what we've managed since the Reformation.
     
  20. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    .
     
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