Saved by Grace or Law

[Alive_Again]

Now let's take a loot at Paul. Here we find a murderous commandment breaking Jew persecuting Christians who, upon finding Christ, apostasized from his judaism when all that would have been required was to also accept Christ. So he starts a Jew that persecutes Christians then becomes a Christian who persecutes Jews in that he does away with the law.

You dishonor Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles. Paul was not really murderous. His persecution of the Christians according to the letter of the Law was probably blameless. Christians did things according to the letter of the Law that required stoning.

Neither Jesus nor Paul did away with the Law. We are held to a higher law (the royal law of love). Keeping it fulfills the righteous requirements of the Law and not doing so brings you back under Law. Not one jot or tittle will be removed until it is fulfilled in love.

Therefore I surmise that Paul did not know God or Jesus before the foundations of the world.

You don't say?

He says in Galatians "For those men added nothing to MY message." here he doesn't listen to the apostles, blows them off. He misquotes many scriptures. The new Jerusalem will come with 12 gates for those Apostles who had nothing to add to Pauls unique message, and not of those gates are for Paul.

Paul holds one of the most honored positions in Heaven. His foundational writings are an important part of the foundation of the church. He doesn't blow off the other apostles. They may not have added anything to his knowledge, but that is not to dismiss them.

Yet in being righteous he became a know-it-all that had to do everything his own way, even taking the throne of God himself.

Lucifer did not take the throne of God. Not by a long shot. He sought to exalt himself above the throne as worship leader. God shot him down very quickly and to take the throne would mean that he temporarily overthrew God (ridiculous).

Well, Paul is a lot like the incarnation of Lucifer, just as Christ was the incarnation of God. All of his names actually mean Apollo, which is Apollyon.

Christ was the Word incarnate. He was not the Father, although He is one with the Father. I don't know where you're going with Apollyon, but it sounds profoundly amiss.

Unfortunately, his actions have led to usurping the focus of Christians off of Christ and onto Paul. Those that succumb to Paul seldomly realize the Jew and Gentile paradigm never really changed. A Jew is one who endeavors to keep the laws of God, today that is all.

When I read Paul's epistles in the Word, I rarely think of Paul. I think of the Lord who inspired the writings. I've never met anyone who actively "follows" Paul, although we are told to follow him as he follows Christ.

If a righteous man barely makes it, what of sinners and nonbelievers? So go with the law. It's been tested and proven to grant salvation, well it's actually only God through Christ that grants salvation, but he doesn't grant it to anyone but those who come out of sin and keep his commandments.

Love is vague and causes many to stumble. Paul is directly responsible for persecuting Christians into hell, all that shall trip over the subtlely corrupt things he says.

Love is doing the commandments written on the heart of the believer. Love is conforming to the Word, by the Spirit. There is nothing vague about love. It's about putting others first. Who is persecuted into Hell? I encourage you to repent of the foolishness you're preaching. Paul's letters are scripture and held in the same regard as Old Testament scripture (as Peter indicates).

"He that teaches others to break the least of these commandments shall be the least in the kingdom of heaven." If you don't think the Sabbath matters, know that it was the day God rested.

Now we're getting into the heart of the matter...your misunderstanding of the Sabbath. We enter into the Sabbath rest by faith. Your fleshly observance of a physical Sabbath will never fulfill the New Covenant Sabbath. We cease from our own works and walk by faith in the Spirit.

Satan's only enemies are those who keep the commandments...

The love commandments are the ones we keep. The carnal ordinances are just that. If you seek to be justified in them you fail the grace of God.

What then shall we say of the "Chief of all sinners" a title that could only belong to satan himself...

Paul in the latter part of his life recognized that like all men, without the grace of God, we are hopelessly carnal and estranged from the mind of Christ.

Paul is to be honored as a son and servant of God, a foundational Apostle and martyr, and all words to the contrary should be quickly repented of.

 

[underheaven]

The Law reveals what is sin. It's God's measuring stick. You cannot know what sin is without the Law.

You are correct in saying that the Law cannot save us. God never intended anyone to be saved by the Law, rather by the Law, we become conscious of sin, and our need for a Saviour. Once saved, we are told to be holy, to sin no more. God then writes the Law on our hearts and minds, and the Spirit, which we receive upon accepting God's salvation will move us to obey the Law, that God places within us.

That is why people who have really accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, feel really bad when they sin. It's what Paul spoke of in Romans 2, our "conciences bearing witness, and our thought accursing, or defending us."

Very well and clearly put,except that personally, I never look to Paul.
If one is blessed by the Holy Spirit,then one needs no one but God and the evangelists for guidance.
[in the trinity]. Thankyou

 

[underheaven]

You dishonor Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles. Paul was not really murderous. His persecution of the Christians according to the letter of the Law was probably blameless. Christians did things according to the letter of the Law that required stoning.

Neither Jesus nor Paul did away with the Law. We are held to a higher law (the royal law of love). Keeping it fulfills the righteous requirements of the Law and not doing so brings you back under Law. Not one jot or tittle will be removed until it is fulfilled in love.

You don't say?

Paul holds one of the most honored positions in Heaven. His foundational writings are an important part of the foundation of the church. He doesn't blow off the other apostles. They may not have added anything to his knowledge, but that is not to dismiss them.

Lucifer did not take the throne of God. Not by a long shot. He sought to exalt himself above the throne as worship leader. God shot him down very quickly and to take the throne would mean that he temporarily overthrew God (ridiculous).

Christ was the Word incarnate. He was not the Father, although He is one with the Father. I don't know where you're going with Apollyon, but it sounds profoundly amiss.

When I read Paul's epistles in the Word, I rarely think of Paul. I think of the Lord who inspired the writings. I've never met anyone who actively "follows" Paul, although we are told to follow him as he follows Christ.



Love is doing the commandments written on the heart of the believer. Love is conforming to the Word, by the Spirit. There is nothing vague about love. It's about putting others first. Who is persecuted into Hell? I encourage you to repent of the foolishness you're preaching. Paul's letters are scripture and held in the same regard as Old Testament scripture (as Peter indicates).

Now we're getting into the heart of the matter...your misunderstanding of the Sabbath. We enter into the Sabbath rest by faith. Your fleshly observance of a physical Sabbath will never fulfill the New Covenant Sabbath. We cease from our own works and walk by faith in the Spirit.

The love commandments are the ones we keep. The carnal ordinances are just that. If you seek to be justified in them you fail the grace of God.

Paul in the latter part of his life recognized that like all men, without the grace of God, we are hopelessly carnal and estranged from the mind of Christ.

Paul is to be honored as a son and servant of God, a foundational Apostle and martyr, and all words to the contrary should be quickly repented of.

That Paul was a murderer does not bother me,we all are in some way or other [YES] What bothers me, is the emphasis the church puts on him,almost sometimes as though he was the word.So when anyone quotes him I switch off.My 'instinct' tells me to. [and a good 'instinct' is what one recieves from the Holy Spirit ].Thankyou Lord.

 

[underheaven]

Greatest command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strenght.

John 14:15

If you love me, you will obey what I command.

Jeremiah 31:33

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

God places His Law in our hearts and minds when we become His. We then follow the Law out of love for Him, not out of fear of damnation and eternal separation and death.

I think the quote goes something like this:
''Love the lord thy God,and love your neighbour as yourself.''
The bible is often understood differently, by different people, but that which is the
very foundation of Chrstianity,like this quote,should not have anything added or subtracted.

 

[Alive_Again]

That Paul was a murderer does not bother me,we all are in some way or other [YES] What bothers me, is the emphasis the church puts on him,almost sometimes as though he was the word.So when anyone quotes him I switch off.

You can receive Paul's words as divinely inspired words from God. Although he tells you when he speaks as a man and when he speaks for God, it is to be received as scripture, and we'll be held accountable for it.

How else would we know not to forsake the assembling of ourselves as some do?

 

[in1]

John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus quoted the book of Psalms here. The whole of the Old Testament had become Law to those who dwelled on the earth. Just as the New Testament has become to the present day people of God.

This is not a strange thing though, John, like Lot, and many others too, thought the same.

Genesis 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

It looks like a lamb but it speaks like a dragon ... anything less than I Am is without the city.

Rom 8:4 ... That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us ....

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, redemption are not commodities no more than the The End is an event.