Saved by Faith or grace?

Dec 16, 2011
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Unfortunately, Israel never got transformed over their will, they never shone like neon lights.
The fullness of the Holy Spirit, poured out on all flesh, had not taken place yet, because Christ had not yet been glorified. That is why Israel never got transformed. By the way, transformation mostly involves the willingness of the one being transformed. I think your not understanding very much of my responses.
God's gifts are lessons, information, not energy.

Requiring belief and loyal response.
The Bible irrefutably reveals that God's gift is the gift of the Holy Spirit; of Power from on High:

"And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you." (John 14:26)

"And when they were gathered together, He commanded them: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss." (Acts 1:4)

"When the day of Pentecost came, the believers were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)

"No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘In the last days, God says,

I will pour out My Spirit on all people;

your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.

Even on My servants, both men and women,

I will pour out My Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.

I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and clouds of smoke.

The sun will be turned to darkness,

and the moon to blood,

before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2:16-21)
 
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LoveofTruth

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I said you're not spiritually ready for the Heavenly Mysteries. You're in need of more cleansing by the Holy Spirit. I'll pray for you to be blessed in this way, and for my own continued sanctification as well. But I'm not going to speak of the Heavenly Mysteries with you at this time.
an interesting quote I saw

" let it be observed that the very express and particular use of it, according to the apostle, is "to show forth the Lord's death," &c. But to show forth the Lord's death and partake of the flesh and blood of Christ, are different things. He saith not, as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye partake of the body and blood of Christ; but, "ye show forth the Lord's death." So I acknowledge that this ceremony, by those that practise it, hath an immediate relation to the outward body and death of Christ upon the cross, as being properly a memorial of it, but it doth not thence follow, that it hath any inward or immediate relation to believers communicating or partaking of the spiritual body and blood of Christ, or that spiritual supper, spoken of (Rev. 3:20)"

I would say also that the Lord's body is the body of Christ as well which Paul speaks of in the previous chapter and in that chapter 11 and chapter 12

I made erences to these earlier, we being many are one bread and one body, and we are all partakers of that one bread. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.

 
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LoveofTruth

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I said you're not spiritually ready for the Heavenly Mysteries. You're in need of more cleansing by the Holy Spirit. I'll pray for you to be blessed in this way, and for my own continued sanctification as well. But I'm not going to speak of the Heavenly Mysteries with you at this time.
Also

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

"till he come". This shows that he did not come in the bread, or such words would make no sense. His second coming is future and every eye shall see him and the same Jesus that went up into heaven shall come back in like manner. But for some to say Jesus Christ "HAS COME" already in the bread, is confusion.
 
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an interesting quote I saw

" let it be observed that the very express and particular use of it, according to the apostle, is "to show forth the Lord's death," &c. But to show forth the Lord's death and partake of the flesh and blood of Christ, are different things. He saith not, as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye partake of the body and blood of Christ; but, "ye show forth the Lord's death." So I acknowledge that this ceremony, by those that practise it, hath an immediate relation to the outward body and death of Christ upon the cross, as being properly a memorial of it, but it doth not thence follow, that it hath any inward or immediate relation to believers communicating or partaking of the spiritual body and blood of Christ, or that spiritual supper, spoken of (Rev. 3:20)"

I would say also that the Lord's body is the body of Christ as well which Paul speaks of in the previous chapter and in that chapter 11 and chapter 12

I made erences to these earlier, we being many are one bread and one body, and we are all partakers of that one bread. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.
The Holy Spirit reveals Him Who is in the Holy Mysteries. Therefore, we must discuss the coming of the Holy Spirit to those of True Faith, and Live it. He whom you've quoted here reads the Scriptures with a veil of darkness over his eyes, having not tasted of the Heavenly Mysteries in the Holy Spirit, and is therefor not knowledgeable about the things of God.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I said you're not spiritually ready for the Heavenly Mysteries. You're in need of more cleansing by the Holy Spirit. I'll pray for you to be blessed in this way, and for my own continued sanctification as well. But I'm not going to speak of the Heavenly Mysteries with you at this time.

A simple display would show the truth here,

Take a piece of your bread consecrate it and say whet you need to say over it to make have it be the real presence of Jesus Christ, your bread God and leave it in the open field for three weeks. And I will take a piece of bread that is not consecrated through your ritual or any ritual and we will leave them in the open filed together for three weeks or more and see if they both corrupt. If so, it is not the real presence of Jesus christ or literal flesh.

Acts 13:35
"Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Jesus Christ came in the flesh (real humanity) not in bread. And God was manifest in the flesh, (as a real human, both God and man)

Jesus often said things with spiritual meaning, we know he is not a literal door or lamb, or vine.
 
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LoveofTruth

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The Holy Spirit reveals Him Who is in the Holy Mysteries. Therefore, we must discuss the coming of the Holy Spirit to those of True Faith, and Live it. He whom you've quoted here reads the Scriptures with a veil of darkness over his eyes, having not tasted of the Heavenly Mysteries in the Holy Spirit, and is therefor not knowledgeable about the things of God.
When your doctrine confounds itself you simply say "it is a mystery" and use such expressions to cover your heresy.

Flee from idolatry

and

"13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Cor 2:13,14 KJV)
 
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Also

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

"till he come". This shows that he did not come in the bread, or such words would make no sense. His second coming is future and every eye shall see him and the Same jesus that went up into heaven shall come back in like manner. But for some to say Jesus Christ "HAS COME" already in the bread, is confusion.
"O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who is everywhere and fills all things, Treasury of blessings and Giver of Life, come and abide in us and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One."

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is no confusion, but only freedom. (2 Corinthians 3:17) This can also mean that we are freed from the power of our own corrupt reasoning's which lead to confusion.
 
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When your doctrine confounds itself you simply say "it is a mystery" and use such expressions to cover your heresy.

Flee from idolatry

and

"13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Cor 2:13,14 KJV)
The OP is about "salvation", "by grace, through faith". How we define "grace" and "faith" is what really matters in this thread. We should stay on topic, don't you think?
 
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LoveofTruth

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I said you're not spiritually ready for the Heavenly Mysteries. You're in need of more cleansing by the Holy Spirit. I'll pray for you to be blessed in this way, and for my own continued sanctification as well. But I'm not going to speak of the Heavenly Mysteries with you at this time.
And so again, as usual you seem to just ignore all the discussion I gave not answer the clear verses shown and just act like you are saying. “Don’t bother me with the facts I believe what I do

That’s not the way to discuss truth.you need to deal with the verses quoted
 
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LoveofTruth

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The OP is about "salvation", "by grace, through faith". How we define "grace" and "faith" is what really matters in this thread. We should stay on topic, don't you think?
I am the OP and the discussion here is about your understanding of grace and salvation and it fights against the truth that has been shown in the scripture.

Your stance in salvation and grace and sacraments dies come right in to the discussion but in the opposite side of truth.

This is important because your stance is very similar to the Roman Catholics and other groups teaching in this which must be exposed
 
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And so again, as usual you seem to just ignore all the discussion I gave not answer the clear verses shown and just act like you are saying. “Don’t bother me with the facts I believe what I do

That’s not the way to discuss truth.you need to deal with the verses quoted
No, you're just not ready. There are no Scriptures that refute the Truth of the profound mystery of Christ and the Church. If there were I'd know it already, having read and meditated upon all of Scripture for much of my life. Your knowledge of the profound mystery is lacking and therefor false -- a straw man. You can burn the straw man with Scripture quotes until the whole world is burnt up, but it won't change the True nature of the profound mystery of Christ and the Church -- the profound mystery of Communion revealed in the Holy Spirit.
 
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I am the OP and your discussion is about your understanding of grace and sakvation and it fights against the truth that has been shown in the scripture.

Your stance in salvation and grace and sacraments dies come right in to the discussion but in the opposite side of truth.

This is important because your stance is very similar to the Roman Catholics and other groups teaching in this which must be exposed
I've said nothing about grace and the sacraments. The most crucial knowledge is that which comes from the Holy Spirit. So for this reason I want to strictly discuss grace, faith, and salvation. For unless there is a true knowledge of the nature of these things there can be no spiritually productive discussion at all.
 
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LoveofTruth

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No, you're just not ready. There are no Scriptures that refute the Truth of the profound mystery of Christ and the Church. If there were I'd know it already, having read and meditated upon all of Scripture for much of my life. Your knowledge of the profound mystery is lacking and therefor false -- a straw man. You can burn the straw man with Scripture quotes until the whole world is burnt up, but it won't change the True nature of the profound mystery of Christ and the Church -- the profound mystery of Communion revealed in the Holy Spirit.
I also have come out of the raise harlot for about 30 years now

And if you have examine all the scriptures I speak of then you should have no trouble to discuss them

You don’t know the mystery it seems and yet you take a cloak of metaphysical talk and say things like this is too mysterious for you to understand

The inward life and revelation of the seed in the heart is known in some measure by all believers but the deity of the mystery of Christ in believers is not known by many instead they wrongly talk Jesus words to be literal as when the apostles did with the leaven of the Pharisees talk

I can only echo my Lord Jesus when he said “he is it you don’t understand “
 
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LoveofTruth

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I've said nothing about grace and the sacraments. The most crucial knowledge is that which comes from the Holy Spirit. So for this reason I want to strictly discuss grace, faith, and salvation. For unless there is a true knowledge of the nature of these things there can be no spiritually productive discussion at all.
You have talked about these things as I remember and I spoke a lot about the grace that saves already in many post and about faith and the true gospel
 
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LoveofTruth

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I've said nothing about grace and the sacraments. .
And you said much about grace and this as well

“The Eucharist is "spiritual meat and spiritual drink" indeed, because it is the spiritual body and the spritual blood of the Lamb of God, Who taketh away the sins of the world. ”
 
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I also have come out of the raise harlot for about 30 years now

And if you have examine all the scriptures I speak of then you should have no trouble to discuss them

You don’t know the mystery it seems and yet you take a cloak of metaphysical talk and say things like this is too mysterious for you to understand

The inward life and revelation of the seed in the heart is known in some measure by all believers but the deity of the mystery of Christ in believers is not known by many instead they wrongly talk Jesus words to be literal as when the apostles did with the leaven of the Pharisees talk

I can only echo my Lord Jesus when he said “he is it you don’t understand “
If you have a veil over your eyes you can't see all of Him Who is written of in the Scriptures. You're not ready to receive those Scriptures that speak to the profound mysteries, because you have a veil. There isn't much of anything that I can do about this. It's up to you, with the power of the Holy Spirit, to do something about this. Sadly, you may never come to be willing to do this.

I'd sort through every last sentence in the Bible if I had time and thought it would make a difference. But it's not going to.
 
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And you said much about grace and this as well

“The Eucharist is "spiritual meat and spiritual drink" indeed, because it is the spiritual body and the spritual blood of the Lamb of God, Who taketh away the sins of the world. ”
Where did I say "sacraments". You said that Communion is "spiritual meat and spiritual drink". I agreed with you and showed you the Scriptures that also say that it is "spiritual meat and spiritual drink". That's all that was needed to be said at the time, because of the ridiculously slanderous insinuations you made towards Communion. You made these slanderous insinuations because you lack the understanding that only the Holy Spirit can give. This is not an understanding that can be read in a book or expressed with sentence combinations, not even in the Bible where the understanding given only by the Holy Spirit is absent in they who read it. This is knowledge of God that comes only through the experience of Communion with God in the Holy Spirit. They who lack the knowledge of God in the Holy Spirit are without understanding, and so they "slander what they do not understand". (Jude 1:10) On the basis of everything you have stated about Communion, and all of the Scriptural quotes you've included in support of your attitude towards Communion, it is painfully clear to me that you are not nearly capable of conversing about such things. So I repeat: let's not.

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:13,14 KJV)

You're defining the profound mystery of Communion as a natural man would, through the power of your intellect and not by the knowledge that only comes from the Spirit of God. Your theology and spirituality has much more to do with "conceptualization" than actual Heavenly Experience in the Holy Spirit. For this reason, the above quoted Scripture describes you, not the ancient Church. There isn't anything "natural" about the "profound mysteries". These "mysteries" are "foolishness" to the natural man, "neither can you know them", because "they are spiritually discerned."
 
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When your doctrine confounds itself you simply say "it is a mystery" and use such expressions to cover your heresy.

Flee from idolatry

and

"13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Cor 2:13,14 KJV)
The holy Apostle Paul calls the "marriage" between Christ and the Church a "profound mystery". So it is only natural the the Eucharist, which is understood to be the Holy Union of the Bridegroom and His Bride (God and His beloved) is called a "holy mystery". This seems good the the Holy Spirit, and to us, and so we say Holy Mysteries. This has nothing to do with covering any heresies.
 
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The fullness of the Holy Spirit, poured out on all flesh, had not taken place yet, because Christ had not yet been glorified. That is why Israel never got transformed. By the way, transformation mostly involves the willingness of the one being transformed. I think your not understanding very much of my responses.

The Bible irrefutably reveals that God's gift is the gift of the Holy Spirit; of Power from on High:

"And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you." (John 14:26)

"And when they were gathered together, He commanded them: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss." (Acts 1:4)

"When the day of Pentecost came, the believers were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)

"No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘In the last days, God says,

I will pour out My Spirit on all people;

your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.

Even on My servants, both men and women,

I will pour out My Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.

I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and clouds of smoke.

The sun will be turned to darkness,

and the moon to blood,

before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2:16-21)
Your own words prove you wrong :

Quote
"And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you." (John 14:26)


The work of the Holy Spirit is to teach (unveil, explain) and bring back to mind what the Word of God teaches.
 
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