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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Wordkeeper

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    So yo face shine like Mo's face?
     
  2. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Only if I am in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, and the only ones who will see this is those to whom it is also given to be in the fullness of the Holy Spirit also at such times. But yes indeed. The faces of those who are in the Holy Spirit do shine with such brightness that cannot be described. When our Lord's disciples saw Him transfigured, they were without any meaningful words. Only Peter babbled on, something about building a tabernacle at that place, because what they were experiencing was so Holy, so Heavenly, that:

    "'No eye has seen,

    no ear has heard,

    no heart has imagined,

    what God has prepared for those who love Him.'

    But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit." (1 Corinthians 2:9-10)
     
  3. Wordkeeper

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    I asked if your face shines like Moses's face. Only if you answer this question can we proceed to the next stage where we will prove that the power of God is not going to transform a person unless he choses.
     
  4. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No , as Jesus said "flesh is flesh " and "spirit is spirit". And a spirit hath not flesh and bone. All believers have Jesus Christ in them in spirit, we don't know Jesus after the flesh now as Paul says for he is seated in heaven.

    We also read that the bread in the wilderness (the manna) is specifically not this spiritual meat from heaven as Jesus said

    "The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven....48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die...58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."(John 6:35,48-50,58 KJV)

    The word "spiritual" used in 1 Cor 10 means non carnal. Spiritual is not physical in the sense we now. But notice that Paul is speaking in chapter 10 and 11 of the spiritual body of Christ as well and our connection to each other and the common union we have. He says we being many are one bread and one body and we are all partakers of that one bread. Paul says the Old Testament saints ate the SAME spiritual meat and spiritual drink. They drank of that Rock which was Christ. He is referring to the same food we all eat of all time. This is the meat that persihesth not as Jesus said,

    John 6:27
    Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


    This meat is unto everlasting life. The word of God abideth forever and all saints are born again by the word of God. This word is in the heart sown as seed. We eat this word as bread and milk and meat. This inward meat never perisheth as Peter said, and if we are in that word of life in Christ we have life in us,

    "23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."(1 Peter 1:23,25 KJV)

    Jesus also said

    "53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you...55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

    Christ is in us by His Spirit and the word is the seed sown in the heart. If we are born again by the word of God then the engrafted word in us is able to save the soul. This is the life and jesus Christ in us. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. This would include all OT saints as well. And as we know they all ate the SAME spiritual meat and spiritual drink as we do and as all the saints of all time do, or else they have no life "IN THEM".

    Now this free gift that men have in them, this treasure in earthen vessels is only purchased by the death of Christ in the flesh on the cross and his shed blood and his resurrection. This is how God gives men the free gift. And when we believe that truth we are showing forth the inner life as well.

    '51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

    This eternal life in "IN US" in Jesus Christ.

    God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.

    We can eat and drink by coming unto Him and believing on Him as well as jesus said

    "35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."(John 6:35 KJV)

    and consider non literal water again here, and related to everlasting life.

    "13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."(John 4:13,14 KJV)

    his is God's grace working in believers

    And just knowing the Greek meaning of the word "water" here will not give the spiritual meaning here.

     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  5. truefiction1

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    My face does shine, but my face does not shine as brightly as the face of Moses did, because Moses, a great prophet of Israel, was a more faithful and true servant of God than I have been.

    However, if I continue to seek God's saving grace, I too am among those the Apostle describes here: "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:17-18)
     
  6. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    "6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us...16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day."

    No outward bread and wine can sustain our spiritual life. Spiritual meat and spiritual drink is needed. That life is in God's Son and we live in the spirit. Our outward man is corruptible and mortal and dying. One day we will have the redemption of our bodies, but not yet.

    Galatians 5:25
    "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

    2 Corinthians 4:18
    "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."
     
  7. Wordkeeper

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    Why is it that those who drank from the Rock did not have shining faces?
     
  8. truefiction1

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    When was the Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh? Before the children of Israel drank from the rock, or after the risen Christ ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father? My face shines more than those who drank from the rock, because I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. I am a temple of the Holy Spirit, Whom the Lord Jesus Christ sends to me from the Father: "But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:" (John 16:7-8)
     
  9. truefiction1

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    The Eucharist is "spiritual meat and spiritual drink" indeed, because it is the spiritual body and the spritual blood of the Lamb of God, Who taketh away the sins of the world. "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit."

    The Living, Incarnate God -- the "Life-giving spirit" -- gives Himself to us for food and drink. We do not worship bread, nor do we worship wine. We eat it and it is the body of Christ and we drink it and it is the blood of Christ. Outside of the context of eating and drinking God, in the Holy Spirit, there is no worship of any bread or wine. These things are for "eating"; for becoming One with God, and that is all. There is no other use for them by us, or by God.

    But if you don't know, through personal experience of it, the sort of power that "Grace" is, then you aren't ready to be fed with the strong meat of the "Divine Mysteries", and must receive warm milk for now. So we shouldn't speak about such things that you lack the "spiritual stomach" for. We should merely continue, rather, to talk of the meaning of repentance, the power of prayer, the nature of Grace, the meaning of Faith, and how all of these things together lead to knowledge of God and to being known by God.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  10. Wordkeeper

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    I have a specific reason for asking my questions.


    Take a look at this:

    Salvation is being able to receive the promise given to Abraham, that his seed would be a blessing to the world, as Adam was supposed to be.

    Joshua received water from the Rock (AKA the Holy Spirit) and entered rest, a shadow of salvation (He was a blessing to Rahab, causing her to repent, turn away from serving the world system to serve God).

    Israel received the Holy Spirit, but did not enter rest, not even a shadow of salvation.

    Moses received the Holy Spirit, his face shone like Rudolph ‘s nose, but he never entered rest, he didn't even get a REPLICA of the salvation we receive in the New Covenant, a superior covenant!


    So what did Moses do wrong?
     
  11. truefiction1

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    Moses didn't do anything wrong, except that He wasn't able to perfectly fulfill God's commandments because the Holy Spirit had not been sent yet in the same fullness with which He came when Christ had ascended and had glorified His humanity by joining it with the Father in Heaven. This is the same thing that our Lord meant when He said that "among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

    You see, John the Baptist is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. He symbolizes the Old Covenant prophetic ministry, yet he is not greater than the "least" of us who have truly been filled with the fullness of the Holy Spirit, as is explained in this Scripture: "These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect." (Hebrews 11:39-40)

    I humbly suggest that sometime when you are moved to do so, that you read the whole of the 11th chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, where it describes the faith of the Old Testament servants of God and how this relates to us who are in the Church of the New Testament.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  12. truefiction1

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    The Truth that everyone who is born again of the Holy Spirit knows, is that only the power (Grace) of God, from the Lord Who is the Holy Spirit, can heal our broken spirituality and empower us to be humble and obedient children of our Heavenly Father, Who loves us more than we love ourselves and Gives us His Holy Spirit so that we can come to Him in Faith and in Love.
     
  13. Wordkeeper

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    Look there is a difference between the solutions that the Bible gives, and those that your theological constructs give, because although they may sound compelling, they aren't addressing the real problems facing the world.


    Abraham realised that the way things were, the way the world was set up, with everyone trying to win, the result would be defeat: no one would win. It is only when everyone helps one another, is a blessing, only then would all benefit. A tamed horse is a blessing, a wild horse benefits no one, not even itself. That is why God created Adam, so that he would subdue the world, with God's help, and bond with God while doing this Father/son project. The problem is that if a person lives sacrificially and the other does not, the sacrifice-er will lose out. Abraham realized that God HAD to be involved, the kingdom of God had to be amongst men. God loves those who love others and He would ensure that His children (they think like Him, they know His voice) would be blessed, even as they blessed others. That's also why the heroes of faith did not consider this world, this mankind, their home, they were aliens in it, and God was pleased to prepare a holy city, a new Mankind, for them. Imagine Abraham's horror when he realized his father's home was the epitome of the old mankind, because Terah had a business that made and sold IDOLS. Talmud explains the situation very well. Idolatry is nothing but living selfishly. This motive is what makes ANYTHING idolatry. Are you leading a church with the intention to become famous and rich? That's idolatry. Are you a partner with God to feed and water Israel from the Rock? That's idolatry. Idolatry is having the things of the world in your heart and not the treasures of heaven.


    So Abraham left the service of the world to serve God. Repentance. Changing mind. Looking for God's alternative. Baptism.


    God presented His alternative.


    He taught Abraham that He was able and willing to protect him in being selfless. This is called drinking from the Rock, because that is how Christ was, and is, and always will be. His words: “Before Abraham was, I am”. It took time for Abraham to understand, but when God called, Abraham heard His voice and responded properly. Today if you hear His voice will you be like Abraham, or like Israel in the wilderness, of whom it was said they would never enter rest, receive the promise to be blessings to the world?


    Remember, Israel drank from the Rock, it was revealed how the Son of God would respond because the text says they were taught that man did not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeded from the mouth of the Lord. But they did not believe. They also forgot the great works that God had done. These two revelations required Israel to respond properly, and when they did not, they deserved to be deprived of the fulfillment of the promise.


    This then is the Way:


    Repent: turn away from the world

    Receive the light (Grace, washing of the word)

    Respond to God's voice (Faith, be loyal to God)

    Receive rest (Salvation, be fulfilled in becoming blessings to the world)


    Remember, the disciples were cleansed because of the word spoken to them.


    BUT NOT ALL.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  14. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No the SAME spiritual meat and the SAME spiritual drink that the Old testament saints did eat of is our food as well, as Paul said in 1 Cor 10.

    The word "spiritual" used in 1 Cor 10 means non carnal. Spiritual is not physical in the sense we now. But notice that Paul is speaking in chapter 10 and 11 of the spiritual body of Christ as well and our connection to each other and the common union we have. He says we being many are one bread and one body and we are all partakers of that one bread. Paul says the Old Testament saints ate the SAME spiritual meat and spiritual drink. They drank of that Rock which was Christ. He is referring to the same food we all eat of all time. This is the meat that persihesth not as Jesus said,

    John 6:27
    Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


    This meat is unto everlasting life. The word of God abideth forever and all saints are born again by the word of God. This word is in the heart sown as seed. We eat this word as bread and milk and meat. This inward meat never perisheth as Peter said, and if we are in that word of life in Christ we have life in us,

    "23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."(1 Peter 1:23,25 KJV)


    John 6:63
    "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."


    But it seems you are not ready for spiritual things yet and are drawn after the carnal and physical bread which they broke. Jesus speaks of the meat to eat that ye know not of, it would also apply to you as well in that context of John 6.

    So for now we can talk of the word repentance for you and the true saving gospel 1 Cor 15;1-4, which does not add sacraments such as water baptism for salvation or the Lords supper bread and wine literally for salvation and the bread God who is bowed down to. Or the Mosaic law or ordinances, circumcision sacrifices of animals etc.

     
  15. truefiction1

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    I agree. You are aware, however, that the water flowing from the rock is an Old Testament prefiguring of the Holy Spirit, right?
     
  16. Wordkeeper

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    Unfortunately, Israel never got transformed over their will, they never shone like neon lights.

    God's gifts are lessons, information, not energy.

    Requiring belief and loyal response.
     
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    All Old Testament types and shadows were just that carnal ordainances imposed upon them until the time of reformation. They were not the reality but shadows as scripture clearly says. But some still live in the shadows and create other shadows that are not scriptural and miss the real spiritual meaning that jesus was speaking of. They invent all sorts of metaphysical philosophy about how bread and wine can really be the body and blood of jesus and they speak of water in water baptism somehow becoming more than water etc. Such a confused mess and so much error in these groups it can barely be spoken of here. It would take hundreds of pages to expose rebuke and correct the massive doctrinal errors and carnal teachings or men. With their masses, or sacrifices of the mass, water baptism, icons, holy relics, scapulars, indulgences, merits grace, man's works salvation, Mary worship, statues, rosaries, liturgies, exalted leaders, babylonian edifices unbiblically called churches, etc etc etc etc etc

    They cannot see spiritual things because they are carnal at time and we see this at times even with the apostles and others who had faith.

    "9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;"(Hebrews 9:9-11 KJV)

    Colossians 2:17
    Which are
    a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

    Hebrews 10:1
    For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    Many are like this today who don't see what Jesus was saying in many things

    "
    6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. 8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  18. truefiction1

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    I said you're not spiritually ready for the Heavenly Mysteries. You're in need of more cleansing by the Holy Spirit. I'll pray for you to be blessed in this way, and for my own continued sanctification as well. But I'm not going to speak of the Heavenly Mysteries with you at this time.
     
  19. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    The Old testament saints were just that "saints", they were saved, born again, had the Spirit of Christ in them, and many spiritual experiences. They did not however have the Holy Ghost baptism.

    But again this is a 45 hour talk or more
     
  20. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    you do not understand the heavenly things it is clear from your talk. I speak of the great mystery of the inward things of the kingdom and you have no real discussion on these things.

    Consider the parable of the sower and the seed. This is the main parable. if you can understand this and the implication of this thats a good start.

    If not then your entire understanding of salvation and Gods inner work is confused


    "The communion of the body and blood of Christ is inward and spiritual, which is the participation of his flesh and blood, by which the inward man is daily nourished in the hearts of those in whom Christ dwells, of which things the breaking of bread by Christ with his disciples was a figure,"
     
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