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Featured Saved by Faith or grace?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    "Energy" is just a word that means "power to do work". So if you can't accept this term as a way of referring to God or anything of His nature, then can we just agree to use the term "power" instead, since it means the same thing? And since the term "Gods power" is Biblical?

    Although, I digress, you aren't bothered by use of the term "trinity" to refer to God or anything of His nature, and this term is never used in the Bible, but only started being used around the time of the heresy of Arius in the fourth century A.D.

    But never mind that. From now on, I will not say uncreated "energies". I will say uncreated "power", of God. Is that okay with you?

    Now according to the statement of yours: "this power is His and part of who God is.", So we do agree then, that GODS POWER IS GOD HIMSELF; it is NONE OTHER THAN THE LORD WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT, right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  2. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    We are saved by grace through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:8,9) which is not to be confused with what James means by the "kind" of faith that remains alone - "barren of works" which is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14-17). We are saved FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10) and NOT by works (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

    The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 etc..).

    You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Faith + works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

    This does not negate the fact that it's by grace (God's unmerited favor) that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation so it's not faith "alone" in this sense -- saved through faith "apart from grace." It's really not that confusing.
     
  3. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Hi brother.

    Let's listen to what all 3 of the verses say:

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
    9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


    I think often people avoid this verse in Ephesisians 2 , verse 10, (even to the level of removing it from scripture by avoidance), which even begins with the word "For...", because they do not understand this verse and/or feel uncomfortable about what it says.

    There might be other reasons, but I think this is the most common reason. Possibly some know it but don't want to hear it.

    For me, the most helpful passages to help understand this were John chapters 14 and 15, with the added context of Matthew 7:21-27 (about what allows faith to endure and continue and survive over time).

    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  4. Wordkeeper

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    Well the basis of your argument is wrong, in the sense that you believe Grace is a "power" that is a possession of the church dispensed to it's members through "sacraments":

    Quote
    Those things are not even in my view at all right now. I'm merely exploring the nature of God's power (the power that is at work making children of God out of those who believe in Christ), whether it is a "created" power or the "uncreated" Divine Power of God Himself.

    Can you tell me which it is?


    Grace is unmerited favour meted out in return for loyalty, faith, leading to salvation, conditional on right response.

    So how are the believers in Ephesus going to be saved? By a "Grace through Faith type" salvation. And this salvation is a gift: the Greek indicates that the "this" qualifies the phrase "saved by grace through faith". It's a gift, in the sense it is not contingent on the righteousness of the Gentiles because not one (people group) is righteous, not even a single one. All have sinned, fallen short of the standard required to DESERVE initial salvation, inclusion in the People of God, through belief, manifested externally by asking for baptism. Israel was invited into the banquet because of God's promise to the patriarchs, Gentiles were dragged out of the byways and roped in because Israel did not consider it a correct invitation.

    Specifically, baptism gives access to the unveiled water from the Rock, veiled to those who are still disobedient. However, some will not benefit because of disbelief. Like the disbelieving guest at the wedding banquet, they will not enter rest, but will be thrown into the outer darkness.

    Sorry, no irresistible power is in view here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  5. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Yes this is my point and part of the main reason I started this post. By grace we are saved trough faith. But it is the grace that saves

    This grace is defined in the next few verses we read

    "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

    this is the inward spiritual life and spiritual meat and drink we live in. This expression that says believers are "created in Christ Jesus" shows the inner life in Christ. This is God's grace working in us, the word of His grace and the Light and seed and other expressions of this life. This is how we are saved when we are a new creation in Christ. This is the new birth by the word of God and this is where all spiritual works flow and can be manifest in our mortal bodies. But in order for the Spirit al life to flow in our lives we must be dead to the old man crucify the flesh, deny it and bring our corruptible bodies into subjection to the Spirit.
     
  6. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Without jumping ahead to what you think I'm going to claim about sacraments, in which you're not correct anyway, I just want to establish the truth concerning what God's power is. Is God's power the Holy Spirit? And is it also therefor "uncreated" as God is uncreated? Or is God's power itself a "creation"?

    Answer me this one question by choosing one of the above options, and if you answer correctly, then we can proceed to discussing what the implications of your answer are in salvation.

    Please keep in mind that I don't argue from the Roman Catholic position, but the Orthodox position, which is of a uniquely different emphasis. Most protestants barely understand what the RC's formal beliefs mean, let alone what Orthodox Christians believe, which is not quite the same.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  7. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    The Son of God who is the Word of God and the true Light is powerful. His word is quick ( alive) and powerful. This is the word of God by which all believers are born again inwardly. Jesus said the words he spoke are "spirit" and they are "life". Power is used in different ways and in different context but consider.

    Hebrews 4:12
    "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart...Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight:"

    John 10:18
    No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

    Matthew 28:18
    "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

    Romans 1:4
    And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:



    and the Holy Ghost is powerful

    Acts 1:8
    "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


    the Godhead is eternally powerful

    Romans 1:20
    "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

    Luke 1:35

    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

    Romans 9:22
    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


    and the Father is powerful

    Acts 1:7
    "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

    Matthew 6:13

    And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost are all powerful. This quality of their being is not the only one. God is also merciful, love, justice a consuming fire, a deliverer, a helper, healer, saviour.
     
  8. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    God has power, Christ has power and the Holy Spirit has power.

    The power is used to perform works, such as signs and wonders, or to give wisdom, to build up faith.

    Since it is a part of God, and God is by definition uncreated, His power is also in uncreated.

    The power CANNOT transform a person. Being filled with the power does not make a person into God.
     
  9. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Yes, but isn't the Power of the Father in the Holy Spirit Who proceeds From the Father, in accordance with the Word of the Father? Doesn't Scripture quite undeniably equate the Power of God with the Spirit of God? I'm quite certain it does. Besides, Isn't the Holy Spirit He Who is sent from the Father to be our Helper now?

    "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

    "But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned. I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you." (John 16:7-15)

    "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

    And what of all the other Scriptures, which both individually and collectively declare, irrefutably, that the Holy Spirit of God is the Power of God?


     
  10. Wordkeeper

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    Just search " power of the Holy Spirit" in Bible hub. Com. It will show that power "belongs to" the Holy Spirit, not "IS" the Holy Spirit.
     
  11. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Power that is sent to us from the Father -- that is the Holy Spirit -- does: "And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.…" (2 Corinthians 3:18)

    Please allow me to humbly explain. The Holy Spirit is sent into the world from the Father to save us by His Divine Power. This is the ministry of the Holy Spirit pertaining to the salvation of all those who believe in their hearts and confess with their tongues that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.
     
  12. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    But you just said that God's power is "not created" but it "is" flowing directly from God's essence. Only God is uncreated, so if the power is uncreated, then it is God in the form of uncreated power, right?

    My point is, should we put a divide between the Divine Person, the Divine essence and the Divine power?
     
  13. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Isn't that sort of like saying that the Heat of the sun and the light of the sun "belong" to the sun, but aren't naturally produced from the physical nature of the sun, but rather, are somehow separated from it? Isn't it more accurate recognize that if it weren't for the heat and the light coming to us from the sun, we wouldn't have any means by which to be aware of the sun's existence?

    We are only able to be aware of God's existence and presence through His Divine, uncreated power. For this reason, wouldn't it be good to simply refer to the Power of God manifesting in our Lives as "the Divine presence" of the "Holy Spirit"? Or just simply "the Holy Spirit"? Or else when we see a miracle take place, just say it's God (the Holy Trinity) Who came and did this mighty work, by the Holy Spirit?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  14. Wordkeeper

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    Is the power of Christ which flowed out of Him like the heat of the sun?
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    In 1 Corinthians 10:3, the spiritual meat which all of the Israelites ate during the Exodus (1 Corinthians 10:1-3) was the literal manna in Exodus 16:15 and Nehemiah 9:15. The original Greek word (G1033) in 1 Corinthians 10:3 translated as "meat" can simply refer to any "food" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). It is translated as "victuals" in Matthew 14:15, the English word "victuals" meaning any "food usable by man" (Webster's).

    The manna of Exodus 16:15 was "spiritual" food (1 Corinthians 10:3) in the sense that it is the literal food which is eaten in heaven (Psalms 78:24b), and was sent down from heaven miraculously by God to the Israelites (Nehemiah 9:15, Psalms 78:24). Manna is "spiritual" also in the sense that it is the literal food of angels (Psalms 78:25), who are called spirits (Hebrews 1:7). But manna is not a food of immortality (John 6:49).

    In 1 Corinthians 10:4, the spiritual drink which all of the Israelites drank during the Exodus (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) was the literal water in Exodus 17:6 and Nehemiah 9:15. This water was "spiritual" in the sense that it was provided by God via miraculous means, out of solid rock (Psalms 114:8, Deuteronomy 8:15).

    When 1 Corinthians 10:4 says: "that Rock was Christ", it means that the literal striking of the rock in Exodus 17:6, resulting in the outpouring of literal water, typified God the Father's literal striking of Jesus Christ the "rock" (Romans 9:33), on the Cross. For "we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God" (Isaiah 53:4). But Jesus' suffering and death on the Cross for our sins, and His rising physically from the dead on the third day, provided the way for us to be saved from hell (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and for us to receive Christ into our hearts (Ephesians 3:17) and the resulting outpouring of God's Holy Spirit like water pouring forth from inside of us (John 7:38-39).
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it can:

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    That's right. For:

    Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith YHWH, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that YHWH he is God; there is none else beside him.

    Isaiah 45:5 ¶I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else.

    Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

    But:

    2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature . . .
     
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No, you couldn't be further from the truth here. Paul says they did eat and drink THE SAME spiritual meat and drink as us.

    1 Corinthians 10:3,4 KJV)
    "3 And did all eat
    the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."


    Inwardly God has always been there by the true Light that eightieth every man. Abraham had the seed, which is Christ in Him and if we be Christ then are we Abrahams seed.

    Yes there were many types of the reality of Christ death etc. But the SAME spiritual meat and drink they had we have also. for we all drink of that rock Christ. Paul whole argument in 1 Cor 10,11,12 is about we being one bread and one body are all partakers of that one bread.And he says by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.

    The supper is inward as Jesus said to the Laodiceans. He will come into them and sup with them. This inward reality is how we eat and drink in the spirit. I gave many examples.

    And all Old Testament saints were born again and had life in them as can be shown by scripture. And unless a man eats Christ flesh and drinks His blood they have no life in them.
     
  18. Wordkeeper

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    How is a person hidden IN Christ?
     
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Yes, it is: For "Our God is a consuming Fire". Note that Scripture does not say that God produces a consuming fire, but rather, that He is that consuming Fire. It is also like the light of the sun, or, in other words, it is the "Light" of God: For "God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5) Notice that Scripture does not say that "God produces light", but rather, that He is that Light. This informs us that the "Light" that was seen by Christ's 3 disciples when He was transfigured in front of their eyes is indeed the uncreated Light of God, and is His uncreated Power, and Grace. The same bright Light that caused the face of Moses to shine when he came down from being in God's presence on Mt. Sinai is also the result of Moses' exposure to the uncreated power, or uncreated grace of God. Moses' face should be compared to a piece of iron, which, when put into the fire of God's Divine and uncreated Grace will turn bright and glow, having been heated and illumined by the uncreated Power of the Divinity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  20. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    "Grace" is the "uncreated Power of the Holy Trinity". It is bestowed upon us by the Holy Spirit, Who carries out the will of the Father which is decreed by the Word (Only Begotten Son) of the Father.

    Our Faith in Jesus Christ is the means by which the door of our spirits is opened to receive "Grace". This is what is meant by the Scripture that states: we are "saved by Grace, through Faith." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    It is by God's Power (Grace) alone that we are saved, through faith, which is our belief in God's Power and our willingness to be saved by it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
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