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Saturday Sabbath vs Sunday The Lords Day....GO!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Glorytothefather2245, Apr 13, 2021.

  1. JMV

    JMV New Member

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    Sabbath is part of the Law, engraved on the tablets of stone by the finger of God. Regarding stoning others to death, the answer is clear: One Judge, One God, One Savior:

    3/26/05 From YahuShua HaMashiach, Our Lord and Savior
    The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
    For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear


    O you hypocrites, listen to the voice of The Lord your Redeemer, and repent, says The Lord. For your iniquity is shown upon your vesture, as a garment which has been ripped in two. Shall you judge others by that which you are also guilty? There is one Judge,[1] to whom God has committed all authority, and One only - The Son of Man.[2]
    It is written: Whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the Judgment.[3] For those who hold onto anger retain malice, and are filled with hate; they shall in no wise escape the Day of The Lord. For it is written also, and remains standing: If someone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar[4] and shall be found as such on the Day of Reckoning. Therefore he who seeks to cast a stone at another, let him first cast it at himself.

    Thus says The Lord: Sin is sin. All sin is sin. All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God[5]. Shall then sin judge sin? No. Only The One who is without sin shall be your judge; and behold, He is also The Son of Man.[6] Yet you continue to pass judgment on others by the likes of what you know to be true of yourselves, accounting to them those same sins for which you are also guilty. Thus you do greatly err.


    Therefore repent, and seek now The Way of The Lord;
    For God is love,[7] and His Mercy endures forever[8]...


    Therefore come to Me,
    Come to Me in spirit and in truth,
    And strive to love others as I have loved you...


    For where there is an absence of love,
    You will find only pain and suffering,
    Hate, and ever-increasing sin;
    And when it is finished, death[9]...



    Says The Lord."

    No man have the right to cast stones at his fellow sinners? Why? Because we all have fallen, therefore sin shall not judge sin for we know not if the murderer is righteous tomorrow. Only He who is blameless, God Himself, shall determine who lives and who is blotted out forever. For it is written, "no one shall hurt or destroy in my holy mountain." Therefore it is they who hace changed that will dwell there, for their hearts long to be like His: "i take no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked." It is they who keep the testimony of YAHUSHUA, and His commandments. Indeed you are without excuse, for He has declared about Sabbath also this...

    ""Thus says The Lord God: You shall not desecrate the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, which I have commanded you to remember and keep holy. For as I had spoken it to My servant Moses, so it is and shall be, even to this day. And as I had spoken it before the congregation, so shall it be done. Yea, with the blowing of the great trumpet, with lightnings and thunderings, did I declare My Law; before the tribes of Israel, and in the presence of angels, did I put My power on open display. Behold, by My own finger was it engravened upon tablets of stone, and by the power of My spirit is it established within the hearts of the penitent."

    For as the Lord has revealed throughout the generations: if you say keep the sabbath not the old way but new way, good. That what is needful, do. It is also lawful to do good. Shall you rest when children need food cooked? Shall you let them starve if the household is empty of food? Yet from doing your own pleasure depart. He who is wise prepares before the sabbath, he who is wise prepares for the new day, the seventh, even one thousand years. Rest not the old way, the way of the pharisees.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  2. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I have always thought of the Sabbaths as, though now fulfilled in Christ along with the rest of Old Testament LAW, the sign of rest in eternal life...Jesus is our path to eternal life and we do rest from our human works required by the LAW because of our faith in Him. I believe we can say both ends are true...a sign of Jesus and a sign of eternal life.
     
  3. Lawrence87

    Lawrence87 Active Member

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    Firstly it should be said the Orthodox Christians do celebrate Vespers on Saturday evenings as a prelude to the Divine Liturgy on Sunday. So in some sense the answer is we do both.

    But there is more to it than that. The reason the Eucharist is celebrated on Sunday is because that is the day that Christ resurrected. Thus the first day of the week marks creation, and salvation.

    People who stick with a Sola Scriptura line of reasoning struggle with this because the Bible never unambiguously states that Christians ought to worship on Sunday.

    My argument against this wholesale dismissal of Christian tradition, is that Christianity did not start out with the scriptures. The Apostles wrote letters to churches and visited them in person in order to establish Christian doctrine and practice, as St. Paul instructs;

    The implications of this being that there are things that were taught to Christians that were not in the not-yet-canonized scriptures that were as important to stick to as the writings.

    Also it's important to note that it was these word of mouth traditions that gave rise to the canon of scripture that many Christians claim to be detached from, and above all tradition. There are many false Epistles and Gospels that were being circulated to promote heresies in the early Church, the genuine scriptures were preserved by the Orthodox church (or you could say Catholic as they were unified at that time) as traditions. So without these traditions there would be no scripture for you to insist upon as the only source of doctrine.

    You get into all sorts of confusion when you insist only upon the scriptures. You end up with people deciding things like not to commemorate the death and resurrection of Christ or the Nativity whilst keeping Jewish festivals, or in this case insisting on keeping Saturday as the Sabbath choosing to align themselves with those who rejected Christ rather than the Church the He established.

    There are allusions to the Eucharist being celebrated on Sunday in the Bible, for instance:

    Even discounting this reference we still have the Biblical injunction to follow the traditions of the Church, which for the reason I mentioned above, decided to worship on the day of the resurrection.

    You end up with all sorts of strange ideas when you deny the traditions of the Church and imagine that the Bible fell out of the sky and the Apostles just went around handing it out to people. Tradition is vital to the development of Christianity and thus should not be so eagerly dismissed
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The problem is that keeping the Saturday Sabbath as a requirement of the faith does not align with what we read in the New Testament.

    #1. There are no commands given in the New Testament to keep the Saturday Sabbath.
    #2. There are no sins listed as “Sabbath breaking” listed among the other list of sins mentioned by the Lord Jesus, the apostle Paul, and the apostle John.
    #3. Colossians 2:14 says that Christ blotted out the ordinances and He nailed them to the cross.

    Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:14).​

    We learn in the OT that the weekly Sabbath is inferred as being an ordinance in:

    “Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God...” (Isaiah 58:2).​

    If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight,...” (Isaiah 58:13).​

    How was the weekly sabbath (Which is an ordinance) against us? Well, the OT talks about how a man was killed for collecting sticks on the weekly sabbath.

    Colossians 2:16 says,

    So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.” (Colossians 2:16) (NLT).​

    Why shouldn't we let anyone condemn us for not keeping the Sabbaths (Which would naturally include the Saturday Sabbath)?

    Because the Sabbath is an ordinance (Isaiah 58:2, Isaiah 58:13) that is among the other ordinances that were blotted out and nailed to the cross by Christ (Colossians 2:14).

    Yes, we see believers keeping the Sabbath, but this was done either because they were unaware of the change yet in God's new program in the New Covenant, and or they only did so as a part of the ministering of Jesus Christ towards the Jews. No command is given to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament, and on the contrary, the Bible speaks how we are not to let others judge us in regards to our not keeping the Sabbaths. Meaning, it is no longer a binding command anymore.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe Christ only could have risen from the dead on a Saturday and He ascended the 1st time to the Father the next day on a Sunday (When He told Mary not to touch Him). So while Jesus did not rise from the dead on a Sunday, the second phase of the resurrection needed to take place because Jesus still needed to rise to the Father to complete His plan of eternal redemption for us in order to be our Heavenly High Priest between God the Father and man. So we can truly say that Jesus was risen on the third day because He had risen to the Father on that day. But a “Wedneday crucifixion/ Saturday day resurrection from the dead in the tomb” is the only model that fits or works with a 72 hour time frame (i.e. 24 hours x 3; or 3 days and 3 nights).

    Note: Christ had ascended a 2nd time to sit down at the right hand of the Father after He was with His disciples for 40 days.

    Paul tells the church of Corinth.

    “Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

    So Paul is commanding two churches to not collect money just any time they feel like, but he gives them a specific day for the collection of the saints. This is Sunday the first day of the week.

    Also, Acts of the Apostles 20:7 says,

    “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.” (Acts of the Apostles 20:7).

    We can see that the disciples partook of the Lord's supper on the first day of the week by breaking bread. This again shows a pattern on what day the disciples gathered every week. Nothing is said that they must also gather on a Saturday Sabbath and to observe the Sabbath.

    There are a lot of things that happened in the early church that we do not see today. We do not see men being healed by an apostle's shadow. We do not see head coverings for women being an issue today. There was a point in the early church whereby Saul (a persecutor of Christians) still needed to be transformed or changed into a great minister to the Gentiles for Jesus Christ (i.e. the apostle Paul). So how something begins does not always necessitate with how things must continue. Jesus referred to the authority of Scripture, and His words we have today were written down for our learning and to have faith (Romans 10:17). The early apostles also written Scripture. Traditions can change with the wind if they are not written down (like with Scripture).

    Also, the word “traditions” mentioned in Scripture in a positive way is only mentioned once and it can just as equally be referring to the teachings that were being written down as Scripture. Nothing in the context suggests that it is something that Catholics and Orthodox suggest it means. These “traditions” mentioned once in a positive way does not say in context that it is a separate oral teaching or written work called “traditions” that is separate from the Holy Scriptures. Most of the time, when the words “traditions” or “tradition” appears, it is used in a negative way and it refers to adding some teaching or practice that runs contrary to God's Word (Scripture).

    Furthermore, many of the traditions I have seen from certain churches like the Catholic church, or the Orthodox church runs contrary to what Scripture teaches, too. There is no biblical warrant for bowing down to statues or kissing icons, and or for praying to the dead. But traditions can be addictive and hard to let go of.

    Read the story in 1 Kings 13:11-32. The man of God was killed for not obeying God's Word over listening to the words of some other prophet. This is how I view traditions. They are words that are not from the Lord Himself. Remember, even the Bereans checked the Scriptures to see if what Paul taught was true (See: Acts of the Apostles 17:11).
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  6. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I very much agree with you on no longer being obligated to observe the Sabbath just as the Word of God declares. Mine was a different point. I think I didn't make that clear...sorry. I was stating that the Sabbath rest promised...in my view...points not only to Jesus, and, yes, most certainly to Jesus, but also to our heavenly rest for eternity. Thanks!
     
  7. cfposter

    cfposter Member

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    Saturday and Sunday are not in my Bible. The Sabbath was celebrated according to a Lunar Calendar such that the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of every lunar month was the Sabbath. So Saturday and Sunday were obviously both correct answers for when was the Sabbath observed along with Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Christ said the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church.
    St. Jude says to hold to the faith delivered to the saints.
    St. Paul says to hold to the teachings and traditions which the churches have received from the Apostles since the beginning.
    St. Paul also says that if anyone comes preaching another gospel than the one the Apostles preached such a one is anathema.

    The fish symbol wasn't a secret handshake, that theory arose in modern times but has no historical support. The fish symbol was a common Christian symbol because ICHTHUS is an acrostic, and it was also convenient as fish show up many times in the Gospel stories; thus the fish symbolizes Christ. Early Christians then also spoke of the fish as a symbol of believers made alive by the water of Baptism,

    "But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!" - Tertullian of Carthage, On Baptism

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The above is all pure speculation. Based, it seems, only on your feelings...

    The Lord's Day, Scripturally, Textually & Linguistically = The Day of the Lord

    The following terms are used synonymously in scripture:

    The Wrath of the Lord = The Lord's Wrath
    The Mercy of the Lord = The Lord's Mercy
    The Grace of the Lord = The Lord's Grace
    The Vengeance of the Lord = The Lord's Vengeance

    We have no scriptural instruction to apply ANY sort of meaning to the term "The Lord's Day" beyond it's scriptural synonym, "The Day of the Lord".

    They are synonymous.

    Unless you are prepared to argue that "The Mercy of the Lord" means something completely opposite from "The Lord's Mercy"? or Wrath?... or Grace?....etc....
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Interesting interpretation I did not consider before. You may be right. But it also could just as equally be referring to Peter being in the Spirit on Sunday (the Lord's day). The context alludes to the resurrection of Jesus in the 1st chapter (Revelation 1:18). Also, the events of the Day of the Lord do not immediately start off in Revelation 1-3.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Remember Noah and his family?
    They were only 8 and yet they helped to preserve the line of God's people through future history, and God's plan of redemption through them. In other words, it only takes one believer or few to preserve the line of believers or the church throughout history.

    This was said during his time and it does not say traditions and it does not say there will be a historic record of the church that is always trackable. The Scriptures obviously survived, and so that kept alive the faith delivered to the saints. Without the Scriptures, there would be no faith or common ground for believers to even have faith. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 says, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

    This was during the time of the early church when Scripture was still being formed.

    [​IMG]
    Do you know about the gospel via by Scripture or tradition? What is the gospel in your view?
    I see it as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

    History does not appear to agree with you on this one.

    Ichthys - Wikipedia
     
  12. Lawrence87

    Lawrence87 Active Member

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    Just because tradition is rarely referenced in a positive way in Scripture doesn't mean that tradition is always to be dismissed as a negative thing. Again it is important to appreciate that tradition is what upheld the validity of the true Gospels and Epistles over the forgeries and fakes that were circulating for the first 3 centuries of the Church. So its clear that tradition can be a good thing for Christianity. If one argues that these traditions that upheld the Scriptures are divinely inspired then you concede that the Church tradition can be guided by the Holy Spirit, in which case there is no reason to posit that all Church traditions are automatically bad. Indeed Christ states that the gates of Hades will not prevail against the Church, in other words that God will guide and protect it, he's not talking about some Church we eventually discover at some point in the distant future, but the one that he started right there during his ministry. The church that for centuries was guided by word of mouth and tradition.

    Iconoclasm was settled centuries ago. If Christ came today you could take photos or videos of him. If there was a photograph of Christ would you have one? Would you let someone spit on it or stamp on it? The photo isn't Christ but it is a representation of Him, and there would be nothing wrong with showing it reverence. The same logic applies to icons. They are not venerated as Christ, His Holy Mother, or the Saints themselves but as depictions of them, and they are venerated because of what they represent and they are a reminder of their presence and of important events in their lives. If cameras were available at the time of Christ, and you would see no problem with having a framed picture of Him on your shelf then you ought not have a problem with icons.

    The idea that it is idolotry might apply if they were representations of pagan gods, but icons of Christ are a representation of the incarnation of the true God, which did have an image that was seen by the eyes of men. To be an iconoclast is to low-key deny the incarnation.

    Prayers for the dead were common at the time of Christ. Though I understand the Reformation's rejection of Purgatory and indulgences, there is no reason to suppose that praying for the dead is a useless endeavour unless you believe they are gone completely and deny an afterlife.


    I'd be interested to know what your ideas about the Trinity and the nature of Christ are, because those are not explicitly defined in the Bible, but rather were hatched out by the Church fathers. Do your views align with those in the Creed? This idea that all traditions are bad is absurd, again, you would not have the Bible were it not for tradition.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I believe I am. As I laid out in my previous post, I don't believe scripture gives us any other option.

    Scripture? Is appears you are still merely assuming a correlation between Sunday and the Lord's Day, in the absence of any scriptural instruction.

    No mention of the Lords Day in Revelation 1:18 that I can see.

    Or:
    1) They do. Look at Revelation 3:3. It clearly references the "Coming of Christ as a thief" to Sardis. There is Only one coming of Christ "as a thief" prophesied, and that coming takes place on "the Day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:2)

    B) John was testifying to being brought to the Day of the Lord "in the Spirit" and told to write down what he saw.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  14. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I know about the Gospel by both Scripture and tradition, because Scripture is also tradition. The Scriptures are infallible on matters of faith and practice and thus is to be held as the Norma Normans (The Rule that Rules) of the Christian religion; but we don't reject that which is Norma Normata (The Ruled Rule)--i.e. the historic and traditional faith as expressed clearly and authoritatively in the Historic Creeds and the received teaching and faith of Christianity. It is Scripture that sets the Norm, but their are Norms that, informed and normed (ruled) by Scripture, i.e. the Creeds et al.

    The Gospel is God's gracious coming down into the world through and in Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God-Man, born of the Blessed Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit; whose life, death, and resurrection makes peace between us and God. God has done this Himself in and through our Lord Jesus, making peace with us, reconciling us, justifying us, freeing us from the captivity of sin, death, hell, and the devil. That by His perfect life He has made perfect satisfaction of the just requirements of the Law, thus being alone the Just One; and by His death participates in the death of all men, plunging us and our sin into His death, thereby crucifying our sin and old flesh to His cross. He descended into hell, conquering and setting to ruin the entire kingdom of hell, liberating captives; rising from the dead He has become the firstfruits of the resurrection; and thus by Him brings His victory of life over death to us, as grace, received through faith, by the Means of Grace which God Himself has provided. In order that we, unjust, lawless, condemned sinners under the Law of God are reconciled, set at peace with God, and have the promise, guarantee, and hope of life everlasting even now received in faith; and in full when at His glorious coming again to judge the nations the dead shall be raised, and we shall be glorified in Him on that Last Day--raised to that life that can never die, in the new creation and eternal life of the Age to Come.

    God became man.
    God has forgiven us all our sins.
    God has given us adoption as sons and daughters by His grace.
    God has given us the Holy Spirit, who is Himself the promise of these things.
    God has made peace with us, who were God's enemies by our sinful rebellion against Him.
    God has made satisfaction on our behalf, that we might be justified in His sight, not by any works or efforts which we have done; but by His grace alone, as pure gift.
    God has promised that we should pass through judgment to life everlasting, justified by His grace, received through faith, on account of Jesus Christ and Him and what He has done alone.
    And all that Jesus Christ has done is ours, as pure gift.

    We therefore, though sinners justly condemned under the Law, are nevertheless freely justified, reckoned holy, by the righteousness and holiness of Jesus Christ; and God has promised to continue the work which He began in us, that we should be conformed to the image of His Son. And in the end, to raise us up, even as He raised up our Lord Jesus, that even our mortal bodies shall be transformed--from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible. That which is perishable and perishing shall be preserved, raised, and glorified. So that we have life with God now through faith, and also in the Age to Come when God makes all things new, and God has set all things to rights by His good, loving, merciful justice which He has poured out richly for the whole world through Christ. And what God has promised, He shall certainly accomplish.

    In this hope we live, in this faith we have hope, and with such faith and hope we are free to love even as we have been loved.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The legend that two strangers would meet and one would use his walking stick to draw one half of a fish, and the other would finish it--that is a legend that doesn't have any history backing it up.

    That the fish was used to decorate Christian meeting places, such as the tombs of the saints, and that it therefore made for a rather unassuming, non suspicious symbol--that does have historical merit.

    But also, Christians weren't secretive about the fish symbol--Christians openly talked about it, such as the quote from Tertulllian I presented illustrates.

    I hope you are not suggesting that the quote from Tertullian disagrees with history, because that is, quite literally, history. It is a primary written source from the relevant period of time, one can't get more historical than that.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong!
    It is impossible for the Sabbath to fall on the 29th and 8th of a regular Jewish 29 day lunar calendar.
    |Sabb [Sat]29|Sun 1|Mon 2|Tue 3|Wed 4|Fri 5|Sabb[Sat] 6|Sun 7|Mon 8|
     
  17. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Another fact associated with the fish symbol.
    The Greek word for "fish" is ἰχθύς. This is an anagram for ιησους χριστος θεου υιου σωτήρ/Jesus Christ Son of God Savior
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe the fish symbol was used as a way for Christians to recognize each other as a part from hiding from those who wanted to persecute them. Why? Because The ancient catacombs in Rome are filled with images of fish, carved there by Christians hiding from persecution. But you can believe whatever you want to believe. I do not believe that everything a person says in history is true just because it was written down in the past. I believe the Bible and I believe those logical things that support it.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I just do not see Lutheran, Catholic, or Orthodox traditions in the Holy Bible. It's just not there and many of these traditions actually go against the teachings in the Bible. But because tradition is strong, such verses in Scripture must either go ignored or they must be changed. This is what I believe. No offense of course. Jesus had a problem with traditions that changed the Word of God, and he was not really so accepting of traditions. Jesus always appealed to the authority of Scripture and not to tradition. You also cannot prove that your traditions are of divine origin like you can with the Holy Bible, either. Here is a Blogger article I created that shows that the Bible is divine in origin.

    Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

    Nobody cannot touch something like this with a ten foot poll when it comes to traditions from a church. Not even close, my friend.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    As for images of Jesus:

    I made a thread a while back that addressed this issue here:

    Pictures of Jesus.
     
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