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Saturday Sabbath vs Sunday The Lords Day....GO!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Glorytothefather2245, Apr 13, 2021.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I have created my own list of New Testament commands, and I have by my count 400 some of them so far (not counting commands that are for specific individuals, like women, children, etc.). I have been working on it for the past couple of years, and once I perfect the list, I will release it.

    New Testament Commands Lists on Other Websites:

    1,050 Commands in the New Testament - Christian Assemblies Int.
    (Originally taken from the work of Fennis Jennings Dake (See my note below on his list).

    855 Commands in the New Testament - Stanford E. Murrell.

    684 Passages on the Commands in the New Testament - BRR.

    Don Fanning’s NT Commands (No count number):
    https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=cgm_nt_com

    Side Note:

    While the NT commands list (by Finis Jennings Dake) is really creative, and it has a unique pattern or rhythm to it, his list of NT commands is not really accurate. I take it as a unique study guide, but not as an accurate list of God's commands in the New Testament.

    For example: He lists a command as “Be harmless as doves”

    Yet, the command in it's entirety is:

    1. Be aware that I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; Therefore, be as wise as serpents, and harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16).

    Dake breaks this one command into two commands and he ignores the first part of this command that says, “Be aware that I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.”

    Finis Jennings Dake leaves out certain commands, like:

    1. Do not make my Father's house a house of merchandise (John 2:16).
    2. You must be born again (John 3:7).
    3. You ought to wash one another's feet. I [Jesus] have given you an example that you should do as I have done to you (John 13:14-15).

    Dake's list does not have the full version of the greatest commandment and neither does he list any greatest commandment, either.

    Mark 12:29-30 lists the full version of the 1st greatest commandment. It says:

    “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.”
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. Just the Sabbath (the 4th command) does not carry over.
     
  3. JMV

    JMV New Member

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    Tell me, where does YAHUSHUA say that the sabbath has passed away? Is it not a sign between you and Him that He is the Lord that sanctifies you? Behold, by your own words have you said that God changes, He changes NOT!

    Say not "new testament" but on going and unchanging testament. There is an old covenant and a new covenant, the new one being forgiveness and grace in YAHUSHUA, the face of YAHUWAH. Since you quote the new covenant scriptures read and understand...

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

    Heed therefore this correction and warning, for God loves those He rebukes and correct:

    "
    3/28/07 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
    The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
    For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear


    "Behold, you have agreed together to forsake My Law and forget My Sabbaths, justifying your transgression in the name of Grace, upholding your sin by permission in the name of The Messiah, whom you call Christ! DESECRATION! GREAT BLASPHEMY!
    You follow another messiah, a false christ, a molded image, which your forefathers created and you continue to mold to this day! Return to Me, therefore, and seek your Savior in truth, that you may now embrace Him as He truly is! For YahuShua, yes He whom you call Jesus, is your only Sanctuary from the storm. To Him alone shall you flock, His flesh shall you eat, His blood shall you drink. Walk in HIS ways as they are, and not as you would have them be. Put away all your holidays, and no more worship Me in that way,[9] for it is most perverse. Seek now the way of true righteousness, and obey all My commands; set all these crooked paths straight, and you may yet escape all these things which are about to come upon you."

    Not one tittle of the Law has been abolished, yet you mistake change of the Law as abolished. The only change was the fulfillment of the Law, YAHUSHUA. He having kept every tittle of the Law, blameless. Remember the sabbath brother, and He shall remember you that terrible day when He with great heaviness in heart declares "depart from me" to many.
     
  4. Hanging by a Thread

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    Thanks, BH.
    I commend your dilligence. I didn't think there could be a response to my post but you're working on it and others already have. I'm a bit surprised that there would be anywhere from 400 to 1050, though. Those numbers are as daunting as the 613 in the old testament. I figured since we seem to be relieved of some of the old covenent laws (such as the sabbath), that the number of laws under the new covenant would decrease.
     
  5. Hanging by a Thread

    Hanging by a Thread Member

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    Yes, I forgot about that. Jesus did say he came to fullfull the old laws. I'm interested to see how BH and the rest of the Old vs New covenant folks address this. But I'd like to ask you: If you subscribe to the old laws, do you feel we should kill (stone to death) a child (son) who is rebellious? Seems outrageous and inconsistent with our faith to me. And there are other old laws that fall under the same category. What's your level of conformity to such laws?
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In regards to Matthew 5:17:

    Well, if I took an apple seed and took out a hammer and smashed it, then the apple seed would be destroyed or abolished altogether. But if I planted an apple seed in the ground with good soil, nutrients, and water, then the apple seed should grow to be fulfilled into it's intended purpose (i.e. to be an apple tree). When we look at an apple seed and an apple tree, they do not appear the same. Yet, the apple tree cannot exist without the apple seed. This is why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Jesus fulfilled the Old Law by what He did upon the cross, and by bringing in New Covenant teachings that were superior to the Old. While Matthew 5:17 is referring to the Law of Moses (not being abolished, but fulfilled), we also read in context in Matthew 5:19 about how Jesus also referred to the “least of these commandments,” too; I believe these commands in verse 19 are in reference to the new teachings He was giving at the Sermon on the Mount, and not the Old Covenant laws. For...

    Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
    (Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

    The Old Way says:
    "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
    (Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


    The Old Way says:
    "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


    The Old Way says:
    "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
    35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
    36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
    37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


    The Old Way says:
    "And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

    "And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

    "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

    16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
    17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

    "They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

    Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


    The Old Way says:
    20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
    21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
    22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

    4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

    Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

    The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
    "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
    "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
    (Galatians 5:2).


    The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
    32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
    "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​


    So it appears things have changed.

    This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

    "For the priesthood being changed,
    there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
    (Hebrews 7:12).

    “For the law was given by Moses,
    but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
    (John 1:17).

    Jesus said,
    "Think not that I am come to destroy
    the law, or the prophets:
    I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
    (Matthew 5:17).
    Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).


     
  7. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The original and true Christian Church made Sunday the day of Christian worship because they rightly believed it was more fitting to celebrate worship on the day of Jesus Christ's glorious Resurrection, than on the day He lay dead in the tomb. Besides, why should Christianity follow the laws of Judaism?
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    As someone who has spent some time debating Mormons, my argument here is not altogether different than the argument I give to them: If Jesus cannot be trusted in His promise that His Church would be victorious even against the gates of hades; if the Apostles cannot be trusted to teach, confess, and convey the Gospel and the true faith to those to whom they preached, then that doesn't just call into question the integrity of the historic Christian faith, it undermines the Scriptures themselves.

    Without that historic Christian faith, without the historic community of believing Christians retaining, confessing, and believing what they had received from the Apostles from the beginning, then the Bible itself cannot be trusted. Because the Church did not come from the Bible, the Bible came from the Church. It is only because you and I have received the Scriptures, as they have been handed down to us, that we have them. Otherwise we would only have many different scrolls, and it would be up to each and every individual to decide what is or isn't Scripture.

    We can't even talk about heresy or orthodoxy, because heresy and orthodoxy are concepts that only make sense if built upon the foundational premise of a faithful and confessing Church.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. Nathan@work

    [email protected] Always ready :)

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    I can assure you I am not Mormon ;)

    However, I do not hold my Faith in the visible church, the Bible, or any other "Christian" doctrine.

    Yes, I do believe the Bible is true in what it says, but as evidence of so much division regarding it, there is a lot of disagreement in what it says. So I do not trust in what another man teaches me unless I know that God wants me to learn something from him.

    My Faith comes from God. When I need to know something or do something, there is no doubt in my mind about it. Everything else is just based on reasoning.

    We know from the letters penned in the New Testament that there were people who had already infiltrated the Church and were actually leading people astray. So based on that, it is not impossible that those people did not also influence some of the post-Biblical early church writings.

    I have read quite a bit of them, and I take them with a grain of salt. There have been many things I could say were true for absolute, but also many that I could not.

    In the end, I do not believe that thinking John meant Sunday/first day of the week when he wrote "the Lord's day" is in any way, shape, or form heretical. I think it is just a simple human error to believe it.

    I do not get upset about it in the least when someone uses that term for Sunday. But I do, in the back of my mind, wish I could put into words the beautiful meaning of what John wrote, to the one who uses the term - and I try when I get the chance.
     
  10. Nathan@work

    [email protected] Always ready :)

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    Paul made it very clear in Galatians 4 what the main difference is between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
     
  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Of that I have no doubt. I only brought up Mormonism as an example. Restorationism and Primitivism are common modern day heresies.

    I'm not accusing you of either. Only that these heretical ideas are quite common place. And they are very tempting heresies because they have the thin veneer of piety, making them appealing.

    But the devil's poison is often most effective when it has the appearance of something good. Like a bright shiny fruit dangling from a tree. But his words are poison, they are always poison.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    First, Restorationism is merely the attempt to be like the early church. If one is against Restorationism, then one is against the early church.

    Second, there are more...

    #1. Christians who seek to do their own thing, cling to their own church traditions (not found in the Bible), and or who justify some kind of sin (that the Bible condemns) while they think they are saved,

    vs.
    #2. Christians who are Restorationists (believers attempting to live like the early church). Radical Christians are not that common to see today. Not many today truly are trying to live like the original apostles in regards to doctrine, and morality. Most just are happy to float along in following a church organization that in most cases partakes in practices that runs contrary to the Bible.​

    Side Note:

    Also, while men may label who is a Restorationist, I believe only God can truly say who is a true Restorationist in the sense of trying to follow the early church in what it did. To attack Restorationism is to attack the early church because certain Christian groups were trying to imitate the early church (although some were imperfect in doing so). Therefore, I do not believe all who are labeled as a Restorationist was actually fully surrendering to the Lord (being a true imitator of the early church). I do not agree that Puritans (Calvinists) were truly Restorationists (even though they are labeled as such). They burned witches. Yet, that was not a practice of the early church. Jesus and His followers taught non-resistance. I also do not believe all Hutterites were the same in being radical enough to be compared to the early church, either. Also, the seventh day Adventists would not be a Restorationist movement in my opinion, either. They follow the writings of Ellen G. White, which is not a part of the early church (Which is something additional). They also emphasize the following of the Saturday Sabbath (Which is something we also do not see in the early church, or it is something additional that we do not see in the New Testament).
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While Jesus did not give us any direct command or teaching on the ending of the Saturday Sabbath, the aposle Paul (a follower of Jesus Christ) had given us instructions that the Sabbaths (which include the Saturday Sabbath) are the ordinances that were nailed to the cross (See: Colossians 2:14-17, and pay special close attention to verses 14, and 16). For there are some who regard all days a like (Romans 14:5). Yet, Paul did not condemn these kinds of people in Romans 14. If the Saturday Sabbath was a binding command, then it would be a sin to not obey it, and Paul would preach a different tune in Romans 14. Also, the Sabbath is tied to the Law of Moses. Yet, Gentile Christians are told that they do not have to keep the Law of Moses (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). Acts of the Apostles 13:39 says that you cannot be justified by the law of Moses.

    The keeping of the Sabbaths was a part of the SIGN of the Old Covenant (and it's laws), and not the New Covenant.

    "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." (Exodus 31:13).​

    The New Covenant sign is Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.
    Exodus 31:16
    16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
    Leviticus 24:8
    8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, I agree. Although we can be Israelites or Jews inwardly, though.

    Romans 2:29 says, “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”​

    The Sabbath we keep today is the rest we have in Jesus Christ and it is not a literal day observance like physical Israel had done under the Old Covenant.
     
  16. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I'm aware of what Restorationism is. And no, being opposed to Restorationism isn't being against the early Church.

    You know what is being against the early Church? Being against the early Church. Such as denying the historic faith and practice of the Christian faith.

    The Restorationists are the ones waging war against the early Church.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  17. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Jesus is our Passover.
    1 Corinthians 5:7
    7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
    Jesus is our Sabbath rest.
    Matthew 11:28
    28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Every church denomination likes to lay claim to being attached to the one and only true historical church that can be traced back to the early church. But the proof in the pudding that they are correct is by comparing that denomation and their practices with the Word of God. If their practices cannot be found in the Word of God, then a person needs to re-align their life with what His Word says alone and not with what their denomination says. For whatever words we do not receive from the Lord Jesus, those very words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48). Also, while the Bible speaks of traditions (teachings), it does not say that these traditions (or teachings) are outside of Scripture. Generally the Bible speaks of traditions in a negative sense. The Bible also warns in adding to God's Word, as well. Most denominations in my experience add things that I do not read about and they say they are a requirement. In other words, I am not going to be judged by what some religious group says, but I am going to be judged by what the Bible says (i.e. the Word of God).

    As for Restorationism:

    While Gotquestions claims Restorationism means Exclusivism. I am not sold on this idea. Yes, certain Restoration groups have thrown down the idea that they are the exclusive and one and only church, but this does not mean that all groups that seek to get back to the basic roots of the teachings of the early church (with no added fillers or additions) is wrong for claiming that they are trying to become more faithful and dedicated than many other Christians out there. Now, if they claim that the only way to be saved is through their church and their creeds (i.e. the one true church - i.e. Exclusivism), then they are for Exclusivism. Do all labeled Restoration groups in history have this view?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, where does the Bible teach that we must have a historical faith (an unbreakable line of believers) that we can always track? Yes, I believe that Christians who are faithful existed throughout time or history, but I don't believe they all of them were capable of being tracked through history. Remember, Christians were persecuted and they had to hide and not advertise their whereabouts (Hence, the reason why Christians used the fish symbol among themselves).
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    While it was a sign given to Israel only, it was never a sign meant for Israel only because Israel was given the role of being a light and a blessing to the world through testifying about how to have a relationship with God. In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt with them, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai, and in John 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so there have always been righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel, who have sought by faith to repent from their sins and to learn how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His law. There is not much sense in a Gentile rejecting the light of God word because it was given to Israelites in order to show it to them instead of being directly given to them. Jesus taught his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law both by word and by example and following him is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too.

    While it is good understand whom God's laws were given to, it is not good to focus on that so much that you lose sight of what they teach us about the nature of whom they were given by. God's nature is eternal, so they way to testify about God's nature is also eternal, and existed before God made any covenants with man, so we would still be obligated to testify about God's nature even if He had never made any covenants with man. The sign only ended if what it is a sign of is no longer true, so for you to say that sign has ended is to deny that God saves His people out of bondage.

    In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about which commandments should still be followed to the exclusion of others, but about which commandment is the greatest, and the existed of the greatest two commandment implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest. The greatest two commandments were the greatest two commandments even when they were first given to Moses, so Jesus was not changing which commandments we should follow. All of the laws that God has given are examples of what it means to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected, and the moment you want to take just the greatest two, all of the other commandments come with. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor is part of what it means to obey the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commandments, but rather it is the essence of them. The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of the other commandments to paint us a picture of what it means to obey them. Someone who was living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would act in the same was as someone who lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. If someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not involve obedience to God's other commandments, they they would not be treating them as being the sum of the other commandments. There are many verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, which includes keeping the 7th day holy, so yes the greatest two commandments do require keeping the 7th day holy.
     
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