MrGoodBytes
Seeker for life, probably
Al Gore probably wouldn't have started the war in the first place.
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Satellite Photos Support Testimony That Iraqi WMD Went to Syria
- Thread starter Yoder777
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How can you be so certain? Clinton supported the sanctions, routinely bombed Iraq, and signed the Iraq Liberation Act into law. It seems inevitable that, after 9/11, whatever party in power would use 9/11 as a pretext for invading Iraq.
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DaisyDay
I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State
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No, it doesn't. Clinton didn't show signs of wanting to invade Iraq. On the contrary, his policy of sanctions, surgical strikes and international pressure was effective, even more effective than we knew at the time. Gore would probably have continued that policy.
Bush deserves credit for getting the inspectors back in. If he had only stopped there, he might have been considered a strong and effective world leader.
I believe that Gore would have not pulled the UN inspectors out of Iraq as Bush did. Gore had respect for treaties and for international law.
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Yes, they probably thought it was a really stupid idea regardless, it's as if this were the main issue for them.
Also, Al Gore being president would have had us not invading Iraq as the volition to do so came mainly from a group inside the Bush staff.
So your argument is that the Iraq war was inevitable, also a good desision, and likely justified in hindsight regardless of how poor the reasons for going in were.
With spin like that you might have qualified for a job in the Bush white house regardless of your caterwauling about not being a Republican.
It seems you would support such a war regardless of all facts or reason so there is little point speaking with you about it further.
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Panzerkamfwagen
Es braust unser Panzer im Sturmwind dahin.
The Nobel Laureate ALGORE the Peaceful would never support the running dog yankee imperialist invasion of Iraq.
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Thank the good Lord that the shrub was awarded the post from the activist high court. 33,000 wounded and 4,400 dead soldiers. A shame for the ages.
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Posted by Aisey Day:
“Clinton didn't show signs of wanting to invade Iraq.”
No, he showed signs of wanting to avoid impeachment for committing high crimes and misdemeanors in connection with the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Thus, anytime during his administration when she was either due to testify on the hill or some major news item was about to be broadcast in conjunction with that case, the Iraqi people automatically started looking around for US Cruise missiles.
“On the contrary, his policy of sanctions, surgical strikes and international pressure was effective…”
…In diverting attention from the Lewinsky scandal.
“even more effective than we knew at the time”
At least according to Scott Ritter.
Scott Ritter Charged in Child-Sex Sting
Quote:
A longtime U.N. weapons inspector who blamed a 2001 sex-sting arrest on his criticism of the Iraq war has again been charged in an online child-sex case, and this time he was caught on camera.
Scott Ritter, 48, of Delmar, N.Y., engaged in a sexually graphic online chat with an undercover police officer posing as a 15-year-old girl nearly a year ago, police in northeastern Pennsylvania said.
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_423506.html
“Gore would probably have continued that policy.”
Gore certainly did continue Clinton’s policy.
Former VP Al Gore Accused of Sexual Assault While Visiting Portland
Quote:
The Portland Police Bureau has today released a statement regarding allegations of sexual assault by former Vice President Al Gore while in Portland. Vice President Gore has also been in the news recently for the unexpected divorce from his wife of 40 years, Tipper Gore.
Source: http://theportlander.com/2010/06/23/...ting-portland/
I know it was later decided not to charge Gore in this case, but still……
“I believe that Gore would have not pulled the UN inspectors out of Iraq as Bush did.”
Of course he wouldn’t have. A decision like that takes backbone.
“Gore had respect for treaties and for international law.”
But Saddam Hussein didn’t, and President Bush knew that. So did anyone who didn’t have their heads stuck…..in the sand.
In October of 2002 UNSCR 1441 was unanimously passed by the UN Security Council. At that time it was an indisputable fact that Hussein did possess weapons of mass destruction, and this fact had not been and was not questioned by the administrations of Presidents George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. As has been documented here on these forums many times, the United States Congress also accepted this as fact, with many leading Democrats of the time voicing their support for potential conflict with Iraq if Hussein did not give up his WMD program. The list of leading Democrats sounding off on Hussein’s WMD’s included such notable names as Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and John Kerry. In addition, the existence of WMD’s in Iraq was accepted fact within the CIA, Israeli Intelligence, and pretty much every other organization which had critically examined the issue between the years 1991 and 2003.
Joe Lieberman phrased it thus in an article for the Wall Street Journal dated October 7th, 2002. Quote:
“Why has military action against Saddam become so urgent? Why not give diplomacy and inspections another chance? Why now?”
“For more than a decade we have tried everything--diplomacy, sanctions, inspections, limited military action--except war to convince Saddam to keep the promises he made, and the U.N. endorsed, to end the Gulf War. Those steps have not worked.”
UNSCR 1441 stated that Iraq was:
“in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq's breaches related not only to weapons of mass destruction (WMD), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by its troops during the 1991 invasion and occupation.”
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002...foreignpolicy2
I think you are correct in that Gore would have simply, in the name of Peace and Understanding and Tolerance, of course, continued to pay lip service to the problem and granted Hussein extension after extension to the UN mandates and basically ignored the issue. No one can say for sure what the result of that policy would have been, but there is some historical precedent to offer some logical speculation.
Halabja, March 1988:
“Clinton didn't show signs of wanting to invade Iraq.”
No, he showed signs of wanting to avoid impeachment for committing high crimes and misdemeanors in connection with the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Thus, anytime during his administration when she was either due to testify on the hill or some major news item was about to be broadcast in conjunction with that case, the Iraqi people automatically started looking around for US Cruise missiles.
“On the contrary, his policy of sanctions, surgical strikes and international pressure was effective…”
…In diverting attention from the Lewinsky scandal.
“even more effective than we knew at the time”
At least according to Scott Ritter.
Scott Ritter Charged in Child-Sex Sting
Quote:
A longtime U.N. weapons inspector who blamed a 2001 sex-sting arrest on his criticism of the Iraq war has again been charged in an online child-sex case, and this time he was caught on camera.
Scott Ritter, 48, of Delmar, N.Y., engaged in a sexually graphic online chat with an undercover police officer posing as a 15-year-old girl nearly a year ago, police in northeastern Pennsylvania said.
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_423506.html
“Gore would probably have continued that policy.”
Gore certainly did continue Clinton’s policy.
Former VP Al Gore Accused of Sexual Assault While Visiting Portland
Quote:
The Portland Police Bureau has today released a statement regarding allegations of sexual assault by former Vice President Al Gore while in Portland. Vice President Gore has also been in the news recently for the unexpected divorce from his wife of 40 years, Tipper Gore.
Source: http://theportlander.com/2010/06/23/...ting-portland/
I know it was later decided not to charge Gore in this case, but still……
“I believe that Gore would have not pulled the UN inspectors out of Iraq as Bush did.”
Of course he wouldn’t have. A decision like that takes backbone.
“Gore had respect for treaties and for international law.”
But Saddam Hussein didn’t, and President Bush knew that. So did anyone who didn’t have their heads stuck…..in the sand.
In October of 2002 UNSCR 1441 was unanimously passed by the UN Security Council. At that time it was an indisputable fact that Hussein did possess weapons of mass destruction, and this fact had not been and was not questioned by the administrations of Presidents George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. As has been documented here on these forums many times, the United States Congress also accepted this as fact, with many leading Democrats of the time voicing their support for potential conflict with Iraq if Hussein did not give up his WMD program. The list of leading Democrats sounding off on Hussein’s WMD’s included such notable names as Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and John Kerry. In addition, the existence of WMD’s in Iraq was accepted fact within the CIA, Israeli Intelligence, and pretty much every other organization which had critically examined the issue between the years 1991 and 2003.
Joe Lieberman phrased it thus in an article for the Wall Street Journal dated October 7th, 2002. Quote:
“Why has military action against Saddam become so urgent? Why not give diplomacy and inspections another chance? Why now?”
“For more than a decade we have tried everything--diplomacy, sanctions, inspections, limited military action--except war to convince Saddam to keep the promises he made, and the U.N. endorsed, to end the Gulf War. Those steps have not worked.”
UNSCR 1441 stated that Iraq was:
“in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq's breaches related not only to weapons of mass destruction (WMD), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by its troops during the 1991 invasion and occupation.”
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002...foreignpolicy2
I think you are correct in that Gore would have simply, in the name of Peace and Understanding and Tolerance, of course, continued to pay lip service to the problem and granted Hussein extension after extension to the UN mandates and basically ignored the issue. No one can say for sure what the result of that policy would have been, but there is some historical precedent to offer some logical speculation.
Halabja, March 1988:
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"I don't think you can how OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedom -2003), without understanding the end of the '91 war ..."
(Maj. Michael Eisenstadt, intelligence officer and expert on Middle Eastern security issues in civilian life)
- according to T. E. Ricks book "FIASCO:The American Military Adventure in Iraq," GHW Bush and his advisers "botched" the conclusion of the 1991 Gulf War, because like his son 12 years later, neither had a clear plan as to what a post war Iraq would resemble.
- GHW Bush encouraged the Shiites and Kurds to rebel but then allowed 80 000 Republican Guards to escape back into Iraq. The GHW Bush Administration then gave Saddam permission to conduct helicopter-flights within Iraq's borders which resulted in a slaughter and the lasting mistrust of the very people Operation Iraqi Freedom would later depended on.
- The US finally established a "no-fly" zone in the north in April 1991 for Operation Provide Comfort to protect the Kurds, but it would take another 16 months to establish one in the south to protect the Shiites.
- Army Col. Doulglas Macgregor characterized Desert Storm as "strategic defeat" for the US
- the GHW Bush Administration even allowed Saddam to keep the southern oil-fields in Iraq
- in December, 1998, the Clinton Administration sanctioned a 4 day series of air attacks (Desert Fox) on Iraq using 415 cruise missiles, B-52 bombers and B-1 stealth bombers. According to General Zinni and the intelligence reports of Arab allies, these attacks destabilized Saddam's control - but to this day Desert Fox is dismissed by Republicans as nothing more than an attempt to divert attention away from the Lewinski Scandal.
- "Saddam panicked during the strikes. Fearing that his control was threatened, he ordered large-scale arrests and executions, which backfired and destabalized his regime dor months afterward."
(Kenneth Pollard, "The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq" - 2002)
- "I cannot support this military action in the Persian Gulf at this time. Both the timing and the policy are subject to question."
(Trent Lott, Republican Senate Majority Leader)
- "Desert Fox was a sham. They were so casuality adverse. They did nothing but bomb empty buildings."
(Danielle Ptetka, national security analyst, American Enterprise Institute)
- "The chairman of the Iraqi atomic industry surrendered to me (2003), and I found out that our reason for invading pretty much went away in 1998'
(Army Col. Alan King)
- apparently WMD were destroyed in Iraq prior to 1998, but the capacity to manufacture them still remained. The 97 sites that were attacked during Desert Fox eliminated the capacity to resurrect these weapons programs.
- in the late 1990's an Iraqi delegation returned from Russia with the news that it might be able to acquire a nucleur warhead. Saddam declined and had the head of this delegation executed for fear that the US would attack if they suspected Iraq had acquired a warhead.
(Maj. Michael Eisenstadt, intelligence officer and expert on Middle Eastern security issues in civilian life)
- according to T. E. Ricks book "FIASCO:The American Military Adventure in Iraq," GHW Bush and his advisers "botched" the conclusion of the 1991 Gulf War, because like his son 12 years later, neither had a clear plan as to what a post war Iraq would resemble.
- GHW Bush encouraged the Shiites and Kurds to rebel but then allowed 80 000 Republican Guards to escape back into Iraq. The GHW Bush Administration then gave Saddam permission to conduct helicopter-flights within Iraq's borders which resulted in a slaughter and the lasting mistrust of the very people Operation Iraqi Freedom would later depended on.
- The US finally established a "no-fly" zone in the north in April 1991 for Operation Provide Comfort to protect the Kurds, but it would take another 16 months to establish one in the south to protect the Shiites.
- Army Col. Doulglas Macgregor characterized Desert Storm as "strategic defeat" for the US
- the GHW Bush Administration even allowed Saddam to keep the southern oil-fields in Iraq
- in December, 1998, the Clinton Administration sanctioned a 4 day series of air attacks (Desert Fox) on Iraq using 415 cruise missiles, B-52 bombers and B-1 stealth bombers. According to General Zinni and the intelligence reports of Arab allies, these attacks destabilized Saddam's control - but to this day Desert Fox is dismissed by Republicans as nothing more than an attempt to divert attention away from the Lewinski Scandal.
- "Saddam panicked during the strikes. Fearing that his control was threatened, he ordered large-scale arrests and executions, which backfired and destabalized his regime dor months afterward."
(Kenneth Pollard, "The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq" - 2002)
- "I cannot support this military action in the Persian Gulf at this time. Both the timing and the policy are subject to question."
(Trent Lott, Republican Senate Majority Leader)
- "Desert Fox was a sham. They were so casuality adverse. They did nothing but bomb empty buildings."
(Danielle Ptetka, national security analyst, American Enterprise Institute)
- "The chairman of the Iraqi atomic industry surrendered to me (2003), and I found out that our reason for invading pretty much went away in 1998'
(Army Col. Alan King)
- apparently WMD were destroyed in Iraq prior to 1998, but the capacity to manufacture them still remained. The 97 sites that were attacked during Desert Fox eliminated the capacity to resurrect these weapons programs.
- in the late 1990's an Iraqi delegation returned from Russia with the news that it might be able to acquire a nucleur warhead. Saddam declined and had the head of this delegation executed for fear that the US would attack if they suspected Iraq had acquired a warhead.
Last edited:
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MrGoodBytes
Seeker for life, probably
I unironically agree with your characterization of the war.
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