Satanic Temple announces a Satanic Ritual Abortion

[disciple Clint]

Off the top of my head a fetus doesn’t count as a person in the census, on taxes, for welfare, building occupancy limits, and attendance at baseball games. There may be others.

So that makes them less of a human person, what kind of logic is that?

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

So that makes them less of a human person, what kind of logic is that?

It would suggest they aren’t a person. Change these things and your argument that a fetus is a person will hold more merit.

 

[disciple Clint]

No change would take place other than that I don't fit the description of "person" under the law.

exactly so regardless of the law you would remain just as much a person as you have always been. The same is true for the unborn child, it was a human person from conception.

 

[Lord Vega]

Do you support laws that trample on the religious freedoms of others?

Satanism isn't a religion; it's willful rebellion against Christ. For this reason, restricting abortion isn't trampling on anyone's religious freedoms. Besides, it's not like Satanists are nuclear family-oriented people. You don't really see them marrying each other in heathenistic ceremonies and then having a lot of kids. I would assume that most Satanists don't start families. Their reason for aggressively opposing abortion laws isn't because they're having too many kids and actually feel the need to seek abortions; it's to stick it to religious Christians who value life.

 

[disciple Clint]

There are laws requiring companies to provide health insurance that covers contraception, but religious companies don't have to obey them. That's the whole point of all this 'religious freedom' going around these days -- being able to ignore laws.

OK so if you think that a court would overlook murder in the case of a religious human sacrifice then you may be right but I doubt it.

 

[disciple Clint]

Do you support laws that trample on the religious freedoms of others?

which laws specifically are you talking about.

 

[disciple Clint]

After 23 weeks.

show me where the laws limits it to 23 weeks

 

[TLK Valentine]

Satanism isn't a religion;

They say it is. Who are you to tell them it's not?

it's willful rebellion against Christ.

how is that not a religious position?

For this reason, restricting abortion isn't trampling on anyone's religious freedoms.

except theirs, which you've already dismissed as nonexistent.

Besides, it's not like Satanists are nuclear family-oriented people. You don't really see them marrying each other in heathenistic ceremonies and then having a lot of kids.

They're different. So what?

I would assume that most Satanists don't start families.

I'm sure you assume a great deal.

Their reason for aggressively opposing abortion laws isn't because they're having too many kids and actually feel the need to seek abortions; it's to stick it to religious Christians who value life.

Prove it.

 

[SimplyMe]

If an unborn child is a person under criminal law why would it not be a child under any other circumstances? The truth is obvious but it is inconvenient. unfortunately and unfairly the child suffers death for indiscretions of the parent.

By this logic, I assume you have no issue with Apple, the NY Times, the Washington Post, etc. suing for their voting rights -- after all, corporations are defined as a "person" under some laws.

Satanism isn't a religion; it's willful rebellion against Christ. For this reason, restricting abortion isn't trampling on anyone's religious freedoms. Besides, it's not like Satanists are nuclear family-oriented people.

I'd be careful with this logic. First, I don't think you want the government involved in determining what are and are not legitimate religions. After all, I can see Catholics trying to argue that only Catholicism is actually Christian -- that all other Christian religions are offshoots of them. Further, if the government can determine what is and isn't religion, then it opens the door that they can determine what are and are not valid religious beliefs -- I can see a movement for the government to find gay "sins" are not a valid religious belief and, as such, religions cannot discriminate against gays (have to allow them as pastors, allow gay couples to marry, etc).

It does, at least initially, sound like a good thing to have the government able to determine what is and isn't a valid religion; in practice it is a very bad idea.

You don't really see them marrying each other in heathenistic ceremonies and then having a lot of kids. I would assume that most Satanists don't start families. Their reason for aggressively opposing abortion laws isn't because they're having too many kids and actually feel the need to seek abortions; it's to stick it to religious Christians who value life.

I would say that any argument that relies on your assumptions about a group is not worth the digital ink it is written with.

 

[TLK Valentine]

which laws specifically are you talking about.

The abortion laws which violate the Satanists' religious freedom, of course.

 

[TLK Valentine]

show me where the laws limits it to 23 weeks

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_status/billText.aspx?sy=2017&id=427&txtFormat=html

My bad -- 20 weeks, not 23

 

[disciple Clint]

It would suggest they aren’t a person. Change these things and your argument that a fetus is a person will hold more merit.

To say that a fetus is not a human person and only becomes a human person at some specific time is not consistent with logic or science

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

To say that a fetus is not a human person and only becomes a human person at some specific time is not consistent with logic or science

You pick the specific time as conception. I and the laws of this country pick birth. The Bible picks a month after birth when it comes to certain census taking purposes (Numbers 3:14-15).

 

[disciple Clint]

You pick the specific time as conception. I and the laws of this country pick birth. The Bible picks a month after birth when it comes to certain census taking purposes (Numbers 3:14-15).

so you would say that the unborn child is not a human person one day prior to birth, how ridiculous. As if some change happens at the moment of birth, that change happened at the moment of conception not at birth, it was a human person at conception and it is still a human person at birth.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

so you would say that the unborn child is not a human person one day prior to birth, how ridiculous. As if some change happens at the moment of birth, that change happened at the moment of conception not at birth, it was a human person at conception and it is still a human person at birth.

Breathing on their own starts to happen at birth. That’s a pretty big change.

 

[KCfromNC]

Satanism isn't a religion; it's willful rebellion against Christ.

That's fine to hold as a personal opinion. The problem is that this is a question of the government making such decisions, and then more specifically using them as a basis to treat various religious groups differently. That's not allowed.

 

[jayem]

To say that a fetus is not a human person and only becomes a human person at some specific time is not consistent with logic or science

But for that to have any legal authority nationwide, the Constitution will have to be amended. Just like it required the 14th Amendment for Black people to have the same legal rights as anyone else in every state.

 

[Speedwell]

so you would say that the unborn child is not a human person one day prior to birth, how ridiculous. As if some change happens at the moment of birth, that change happened at the moment of conception not at birth, it was a human person at conception and it is still a human person at birth.

If a human person exists from the moment of conception--under the law--that means that a death certificate would have to be issued for every zygote which fails to implant and a coroner's inquest held whenever the cause of that failure is unclear. As a practical matter, how will that be handled?

 

[TLK Valentine]

To say that a fetus is not a human person and only becomes a human person at some specific time is not consistent with logic or science

The law often isn't consistent with logic or science... but it is what it is.

Anyone who wants to pretend to care about consistency should've demanded that every pregnant woman in the country receive a double COVID stimulus check... for obvious reasons. I saw no complaints that they did not.

 

[Caliban]

"In accordance with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), first trimester abortions are now exempt from unnecessary regulations for all individuals practicing The Satanic Temple's religious abortion ritual."

https://announcement.thesatanictemple.com/rrr-campaign41280784

An interesting move by the Satanic Temple which counters the push from the fundagelicals on the right to ban abortion.

This could mean that a woman who wants an abortion can claim "religious freedom" as the justification for getting one. I wonder how this would hold up in the courts.

Given the fact that so many Christians think atheism and other forms of non-belief are actually religious beliefs--I think they are getting what they asked for. If religious people are going to claim that secular humanism is a religious belief, then how do they counter the claim from the Satanic Temple?