Satan is defeated or not?

yeshuaslavejeff

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In this video it looks like satan is still very active even tho' he is defeated... How can that be?
In Ephesians it is written that the prince of the power of the air controls everyone,
until ("IF") they are born again. After we were born again, satan had no power over us [Ecclesia] ---
After that he can only attack us and deceive as many as possible (which he does every day).

YHWH does give him permission to martyr many believers , all through the years, and this year,
and next year --- i.e. YHWH gives satan power to kill believers.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Doesn't anyone else find it odd that Satan wasn't directly seen as a deceived and tempter of ultimate evil (I mean where it was EXPLICITLY described as him) until the New Testament?

It said that God sent lying spirits and deception, not Satan.

"Lucifer/Morning Star" doesn't even refer to Satan, it refers to a Babylonian king if you actually read Isaiah 14 in complete context and not just cherry-pick verses 12-15. Morning Star just was used for someone in a position of great power—the king of Babylon, the Pharaoh, Jesus, all of whom were described with that term.

Satan in Job was like a prosecuting attorney, and only did what God allowed him to do.

The serpent in the garden was just described as being a crafty serpent, that's it. If it was Satan disguised as the snake, how is "upon your belly you shall crawl" a punishment that would make any sense if Satan could just shapeshift? It only makes sense of the serpent was just as Genesis describes—the craftiest of all the beasts of the field the Lord God had made (which probably had legs).

It's only really in the New Testament where we begin to see this divide of all the good traits being from God, and evil coming from Satan, a change from how before God was responsible for everything.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Doesn't anyone else find it odd that Satan wasn't directly seen as a deceived and tempter of ultimate evil (I mean where it was EXPLICITLY described as him) until the New Testament?
Perhaps someone else does find it odd.
Realize that the whole world is deceived,
so finding it odd, is not odd, but expected !
(by the few who find the narrow road to life).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Not at all.
Prosecuting attorneys are not permitted to harm the defendants in the usa. (supposedly, of course --- the whole system is used to attack, oppress, and subvert the victims and justice while looking just and right doing it --- i.e. hypocrites/ whitewashed tombs)
Satan in Job was like a prosecuting attorney, and only did what God allowed him to do.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Perhaps someone else does find it odd.
Realize that the whole world is deceived,
so finding it odd, is not odd, but expected !
(by the few who find the narrow road to life).


If you're so intent on following the Bible, why are you ignoring what it indicates?

It is indeed expected if things developed over time and the view on Satan and God changed.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Not at all.
Prosecuting attorneys are not permitted to harm the defendants in the usa. (supposedly, of course --- the whole system is used to attack, oppress, and subvert the victims and justice while looking just and right doing it --- i.e. hypocrites/ whitewashed tombs)


True, but what I meant is that Satan didn't do any sort of "deception to deceive God" or any of that. He went into Heaven, questioned if Job just worshiped God because Job was blessed, and God gave Satan permission to do terrible things to him.

Again, different from the view of Satan in the NT.
 
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Uber Genius

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The Bible says in the letter of Colossians 2:15 that satan is defeated. But how is he still capable attacking the church, since he is defeated?

In this video it looks like satan is still very active even tho' he is defeated... How can that be?

Not much content on the video.

The Kingdom of God has a past, present, and future aspect to it.

Diagram3-Gods-Reign-Kingdom-Of-God.jpg


This has been referred to for the past 60+ years as the "already but not yet," concept of the kingdom of God.

There is much complexity and controversy surrounding the concept.

One would have to be aware of second-temple Judaism's view of how God represented messiah (An Earthly king). Also, what is going on with the atonement (how did Satan have his power and Christ destroy it on the cross). Also, what specifically can we do against Satan and what we can't do.

This is a 10-12 hour discussion. Not a tweet in 140 characters or less.
 
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CrystalDragon

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How is it any different ?


OT: Satan appears in heaven, only does what God tells him to do. God does both good and evil and sends lying spirits into prophets to deceive.

NT: Satan is harbringer of all evil and God is in charge of all the good. Satan is seen as the ultimate liar and deceiver.

As you can see, way different.
 
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Uber Genius

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"Lucifer/Morning Star" doesn't even refer to Satan, it refers to a Babylonian king if you actually read Isaiah 14 in complete context and not just cherry-pick verses 12-15.

Not so fast here:

We find some very strange language both here and other places that doesn't sound like human kings. We must be sensitive to the cultural style of writing in Ezekiel and Isaiah.

In Ezekiel 28 we see a lament to an earthly "Prince" the "Prince of Tyre"
but then in verse 12 we see:

12You were the signet of perfection,a
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.c
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I destroyed you,e O guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
18By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
you profaned your sanctuaries;
so I brought fire out from your midst;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
19All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever.”

Now do you think the King of Tyre was in Eden the Garden of God?

Was the King of Tyre a guardian cherub?

Was the King of Tyre on the mountain of God?

Did God bring fire out from your midst of the King of Tyre?

As for Isaiah 14:

Joseph Jensen writes the following, "The taunt-song is a magnificent composition, rich in imagination and allusive force. The question of Isaian authenticity is closely bound up with the identity of the figure against whom the taunt is directed. The background from which Helel comes, as depicted in vv. 12-15, is variously given as Near Eastern mythology or astrology. The pattern found in patristic texts is largely that established in those already examined. For the most part Isa 14:12-15 is either interpreted directly as Satan or as the king of Babylon, as merely a cipher for Satan." (Helel Ben Shaḥar (Isaiah 14:12-15) in Bible and Tradition, Writing and Reading the Scroll of Isaiah, Volume 1, pp 339-356)

Dr. Michael Heiser demurs, "Many scholars of the Hebrew Bible have postulated that the source of the taunt-song of Isa xiv 12-15 is to be found in Ugaritic religious literature Many of these scholars believe that the passage contains elements of both El and Bac al myths, an assumption that leads them to discount the proposition that all the mythological strands of Isa xiv 12-15 can be correlated with a single Ugaritic myth Still others contend that only a single myth concerning the usurpation of El can account for all of the mythological features This article disputes both of these positions, arguing that no usurpation of El is in view, and that the mythological provenance of Isa xiv 12-15 can be entirely correlated with the Ba'al-Athtar myth." (http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1279&context=lts_fac_pubs)

He is a Hebrew, Acadian, Ugaritic, scholar at Liberty University.

It is unclear exactly what these sources are but an earthly king is not the focus. Ba'al happens to be the individual that Jesus calls Beezebul or BaʽalZebūb "Lord of the flies."

However, to your point your willingness to be skeptical of a proof-text is laudable.

Your attempt to look at them in the cultural context is also correct, rather than jumping to a conclusion.

If we are going to study Satanology, we certainly have to do it inside the older babylonian texts that appear 800 to 1000 years before the OT.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You haven't posted anything showing this yet.
The main reason views on YHWH and HIS enemy changed was due to pagan influence.
Y'SHUA and HIS WORD is always eternally UNCHANGED

If you're so intent on following the Bible, why are you ignoring what it indicates?
It is indeed expected if things developed over time and the view on Satan and God changed.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No.
You've shown nothing that changed.
OT: Satan appears in heaven, only does what God tells him to do. God does both good and evil and sends lying spirits into prophets to deceive.
NT: Satan is harbringer of all evil and God is in charge of all the good. Satan is seen as the ultimate liar and deceiver.
As you can see, way different.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What you said is not a change in anything,
even if you do have Bible verses to show it.

How? Are you saying you want me to quote Bible verses that prove it? I outline there precisely what changed, do you need Bible verses to be shown as well?
 
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CrystalDragon

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What you said is not a change in anything,
even if you do have Bible verses to show it.


So you're saying that even if the Bible shows things have changed, they really haven't?

How do you know? Isn't that basically going against what the Bible explicitly says to fashion your own interpretation of what it says to keep in line with what you've believed for a while?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Interpreting is never permitted by YHWH.
HE states plainly HIS WORD,
and REVEALS it through Y'SHUA as HE SAYS :
"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,".
Don't ever trust man's interpretation.
That is contrary to YHWH'S WORD.

The BIBLE has not said things concerning what you posted changed,
and what you posted was not (apparently) a change in anything.

So you're saying that even if the Bible shows things have changed, they really haven't?

How do you know? Isn't that basically going against what the Bible explicitly says to fashion your own interpretation of what it says to keep in line with what you've believed for a while?
 
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CrystalDragon

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Not so fast here:

We find some very strange language both here and other places that doesn't sound like human kings. We must be sensitive to the cultural style of writing in Ezekiel and Isaiah.

In Ezekiel 28 we see a lament to an earthly "Prince" the "Prince of Tyre"
but then in verse 12 we see:

12You were the signet of perfection,a
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.c
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I destroyed you,e O guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
18By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
you profaned your sanctuaries;
so I brought fire out from your midst;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
19All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever.”

Now do you think the King of Tyre was in Eden the Garden of God?

Was the King of Tyre a guardian cherub?

Was the King of Tyre on the mountain of God?

Did God bring fire out from your midst of the King of Tyre?

As for Isaiah 14:

Joseph Jensen writes the following, "The taunt-song is a magnificent composition, rich in imagination and allusive force. The question of Isaian authenticity is closely bound up with the identity of the figure against whom the taunt is directed. The background from which Helel comes, as depicted in vv. 12-15, is variously given as Near Eastern mythology or astrology. The pattern found in patristic texts is largely that established in those already examined. For the most part Isa 14:12-15 is either interpreted directly as Satan or as the king of Babylon, as merely a cipher for Satan." (Helel Ben Shaḥar (Isaiah 14:12-15) in Bible and Tradition, Writing and Reading the Scroll of Isaiah, Volume 1, pp 339-356)

Dr. Michael Heiser demurs, "Many scholars of the Hebrew Bible have postulated that the source of the taunt-song of Isa xiv 12-15 is to be found in Ugaritic religious literature Many of these scholars believe that the passage contains elements of both El and Bac al myths, an assumption that leads them to discount the proposition that all the mythological strands of Isa xiv 12-15 can be correlated with a single Ugaritic myth Still others contend that only a single myth concerning the usurpation of El can account for all of the mythological features This article disputes both of these positions, arguing that no usurpation of El is in view, and that the mythological provenance of Isa xiv 12-15 can be entirely correlated with the Ba'al-Athtar myth." (http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1279&context=lts_fac_pubs)

He is a Hebrew, Acadian, Ugaritic, scholar at Liberty University.

It is unclear exactly what these sources are but an earthly king is not the focus. Ba'al happens to be the individual that Jesus calls Beezebul or BaʽalZebūb "Lord of the flies."

However, to your point your willingness to be skeptical of a proof-text is laudable.

Your attempt to look at them in the cultural context is also correct, rather than jumping to a conclusion.

If we are going to study Satanology, we certainly have to do it inside the older babylonian texts that appear 800 to 1000 years before the OT.


I see your point about the king of Tyre part, and that is a difficult passage.

I've heard it speculated that the Eden mentioned in that passage was not the Garden of Even related to Adam and Eve, as no precious stones were mentioned to be there. It is possible that the proverb was taken up against the King of Tyre to compare him to the fall of Satan, though keep in mind people like Noah were also referred to as "blameless".

And while that may or may not have referred to Satan's fall, what I still said before about the serpent is correct if we take the Bible at face value.
 
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