Sanhedrin And The Catholic Magisterium

Amittai

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... Jesus rebukes them by saying 'call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father who is heaven.' He also says in the following verse. 'Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.'

Yes those are about attitude. As Aspzan points out (nos. 18 and 20) they didn't recognise God as source.

Father in heaven: it's in His firm we are adopted along with all the other widows and orphans, not to stunt each others' growth. Is 55, 58, 61, James, Prov 21:10-31, the Feeding of the Thousands, the parable of the rations on time.

When a scribe enters the Kingdom of heaven it is like a householder who brings from his storeroom things both old and new (my favourite parable).

God doesn't have any problem with Winger's denomination dropping saints' days and fancy vestments.

God is a far worse Catholic and a far worse Presbyterian than we are.
 
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Swag365

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Hello I watched this video recently and I wanted to get the opinions of Roman Catholics.

This video focusses on the remarkable similarities between the claims made by religious Jewish leaders at the time of Christ and the Roman Catholic church. There is a sense in which history is repeating itself: Roman Catholic religious establishments may just be a direct picture of what Jesus rebuked in his ministry.

Both the Pharisees and the Roman Catholics claimed to have obtained a form of succession. The Pharisees claimed the seat of Moses, while the Pope claims the seat of St Peter. Further, the Jewish religious leaders claimed dominance and supremacy over Jews. Likewise, the Pope holds dominance and power over Catholics.

What is most important to me is the immense accountability and responsibility the Pope, (like the Pharisees with Moses) has to portray a consistent and clear representation of their predecessor. So, if it is true that Pope Francis holds the modern-day seat of St Peter, then he ought to do everything according to the gospel of Christ and offer, as much as possible, a direct imitation of St Peter.

And Francis and many other Popes have surely made some very questionable decisions, such as advocating for universalism (nobody is perfect)

There are many other interesting points presented in the video.

I invite Roman Catholics to watch the video and offer an opinion.

What historical evidence is there for Roman Catholic claims of apostolic succession?
When did Rome receive authority to interpret the bible, and create extra-biblical doctrines such as feast days or other venerated things? (excuse my ignorance here)

Last time I posted about Roman Catholicism, I admittedly went on a tangent, other members included.
This time let's keep the conversation respectful!


Edit: If you are unable to watch it all, there is a brief summary of the content in the description of the video.
Who cares if there are similarities? Both you and the Jewish leaders believe that there is one God. Both you and the Jewish leaders prohibit adultery. Therefore that makes you a direct picture of what Jesus rebuked in his ministry. Same logic. Equally ridiculous.
 
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Jipsah

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No, its much more than the attitude. Jesus denounces most of their tradition as indicated in Matthew 23: this is why additional man-made teachings may be dangerous. For example, Jesus rebukes them by saying 'call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father who is heaven.' He also says in the following verse. 'Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.'

1 Corinthians 4;14-15, “I am not writing this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

We need to square St.Paul away?
 
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Jipsah

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The rabbinical tradition (Oral Law) is filled with many lies, and blasphemies. For example, they mock by referring to Jesus as Yeshu which, in their tradition, means 'may his name and memory be blotted out forever'.
Dang that's a concise language there! A whole sentence in 2 syllables![/quote]
 
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hluke

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You get to the point in seconds. To deny that Jesus is the Christ, like denying that Christ has come in the body, and blaspheming the Holy Spirit, means to quash and distrust the gifts in the ordinary Christians, to eat the sheep like wolves and not shepherds (sadly most Protestant churches I've known are just the same, and furthermore, some Catholics avoid these problems by selective belief anyway).

Otherwise, any add-ons don't matter. Winger is probably good on some points, but I cannot spend any time on arguments that don't strengthen his own case.
Once again, you are making a judgement on a video you haven't yet watched. Its like going into an exam only remembering the topic headings: you won't be able to answer questions properly.
 
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hluke

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Who cares if there are similarities? Both you and the Jewish leaders believe that there is one God. Both you and the Jewish leaders prohibit adultery. Therefore that makes you a direct picture of what Jesus rebuked in his ministry. Same logic. Equally ridiculous.
Not at all.

Jesus specifically denounced the traditions and practices of the pharisees. These were things that were outside the Torah. If you watch the video, Winger isn't pointing the finger at Roman Catholics, but he's respectfully pointing out the eerily similar claims and behaviours made by Jewish leaders and Roman Catholics.

And because of this we can get a vague idea of how Jesus would react to the Catholic church today.

Again this is not hatred against Catholics. The points he forms are not 'ridiculous' at all as you mention. There is evidence of many hours of study and an intelligent understanding of theology and ancient history.
 
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hluke

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Dang that's a concise language there! A whole sentence in 2 syllables!
[/QUOTE]
I am verbose sometimes. This will improve as I age and read more books.

You are almost 50 years older than me. Do you anything insightful to contribute?
 
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Swag365

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Not at all.

Jesus specifically denounced the traditions and practices of the pharisees.These were things that were outside the Torah. If you watch the video, Winger isn't pointing the finger at Roman Catholics, but he's respectfully pointing out the eerily similar claims and behaviours made by Jewish leaders and Roman Catholics.
So what if two groups make similar claims? Pharaoh claimed to be God. So did our Lord Jesus. Are they both wrong because they made the same claim?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Jesus disliked the pharisees teaching things outside of the Torah. So what? It does not follow that Jesus would also prohibit the leaders of the NT Church from teaching things not found in Sacred Scripture.

And because of this we can get a vague idea of how Jesus would react to the Catholic church today.
No, you can't. It is rank speculation.

Again this is not hatred against Catholics. The points he forms are not 'ridiculous' at all as you mention. There is evidence of many hours of study and an intelligent understanding of theology and ancient history.
Whether it is hatred or not is beside the point. The form of the argument, as you have expressed it, is invalid.
 
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hluke

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So did our Lord Jesus. Are they both wrong because they made the same claim?
Not at all. As I said, nobody is necessarily wrong: this is not about pointing the finger at Catholics and saying that they are just like or worse than the Pharisees, its about recognising that they have both made similar claims throughout history which are contrary to what God establishes in his Word.

Yes I agree that this doesn't automatically translate to Catholics. I might have misquoted this idea in some parts. But no doubt God doesn't command anywhere that the church should become a religion: he wants to know us on a personal level. So, like Judaism, much of the religious practices in Catholicism take the complete authority away from God, and rely heavily on made-made tradition. Whereas the bible and focus on Christ alone offer no room for worldly corruption.
And comparing the Jewish leaders to the Roman Church is an interesting comparison to draw from a theological perspective. It provides biblical grounds for how Jesus handles religious tradition.
Again, I hope you don't think I'm pointing the finger at you, I'm just saying what's undeniable on surface level.

The form of the argument, as you have expressed it, is invalid.
Yes maybe I did slightly misquote some of Winger's arguments. Can you please specify where I argued something invalid? You can really only comment properly if you watch the video, which I pose you're unwilling to do.

And nothing is definitive its just as you mention speculation, with biblical ground to support that speculation. So when I said 'vague idea' that too implies speculation.
 
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Swag365

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Not at all. As I said, nobody is necessarily wrong: this is not about pointing the finger at Catholics and saying that they are just like or worse than the Pharisees,
Friend, I am not concerned about that one way or the other.

its about recognising that they have both made similar claims throughout history which are contrary to what God establishes in his Word.
The Catholic Church has never made a claim that is contrary to what God has established in his Word, although individual Catholics have taught error. Thousands of threads on this website are devoted to proving your assertion, with a success rate of 0.00%.

much of the religious practices in Catholicism take the complete authority away from God, and rely heavily on made-made tradition.
False.

And comparing the Jewish leaders to the Roman Church is an interesting comparison to draw from a theological perspective.
Whatever floats your boat.

It provides biblical grounds for how Jesus handles religious tradition.
Perhaps.

Again, I hope you don't think I'm pointing the finger at you, I'm just saying what's undeniable on surface level.
It makes no difference to me in the least what you choose to do with your finger.

Yes maybe I did slightly misquote some of Winger's arguments. Can you please specify where I argued something invalid?
"they have both made similar claims throughout history which are contrary to what God establishes in his Word"

You can really only comment properly if you watch the video, which I pose you're unwilling to do.
Friend. This is a discussion forum. It is not YouTube. Nobody is going to watch an hour long video.
 
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Cis.jd

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I would recommend something else if you want to show some valuable case against the Church. That video is just embarrassing to use as valuable information.

For example, both Catholics and the Jewish leaders prioritising traditions over scripture.
Didn't we discuss something similar in your other thread... oh wait you ignored it.

With all these threads/post in where you are trying to show "anti-christ" the Church is and making all these condescending comments about tradition, then why do you believe that Matt-Rev is the true and only canon when there is nothing in scripture telling you such?
 
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Cis.jd

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This video focusses on the remarkable similarities between the claims made by religious Jewish leaders at the time of Christ and the Roman Catholic church. There is a sense in which history is repeating itself: Roman Catholic religious establishments may just be a direct picture of what Jesus rebuked in his ministry.

Yes, it's his bad theology. It's another "all catholic stuff is bad so we have to go scripture alone". And "scripture alone" out a protestant is really just his own point of view.

Jesus was not against tradition generally, it was the Jewish leaders using their pious customs as excuses to help them avoid the difficult demands of the Torah. Mark ch7 explains this.

If God was against tradition then why does it say in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 “hold fast to the traditions you received from us, either by our word or by letter.”?

unlike Catholics, not many Protestants create extra-biblical teachings
Like removing Hebrews, James, and Jude? Or creating thousands of denominations all disagreeing with each other?
What about doctrines that later on became cults like Jehova's Wittnesses, Mormonism, Iglesia Ni Cristo? All denying the Trinity and the Divinity of christ? Their founders where all from Protestant churches, all claiming they are following "scripture alone".
 
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Swag365

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Like removing Hebrews, James, and Jude? Or creating thousands of denominations all disagreeing with each other?
What about doctrines that later on became cults like Jehova's Wittnesses, Mormonism, Iglesia Ni Cristo? All denying the Trinity and the Divinity of christ? Their founders where all from Protestant churches, all claiming they are following "scripture alone".
Indeed, some of the fundamental distinctions (e.g. Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, the personal imputation of Christ's righteousness) of most Protestant denominations are not found in Sacred Scripture.
 
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